Scrum reform-your reactions?

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jgriffin
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Scrum reform-your reactions?

Post by jgriffin » Tue Jan 13, 2015 9:54 pm

Article in Grauniad, which skims the surface, and I agree with none of the proposals.
I think the existing laws allow for a return to proper scrummaging.

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Re: Scrum reform-your reactions?

Post by Hot_Charlie » Tue Jan 13, 2015 10:57 pm

jgriffin wrote: I think the existing laws allow for a return to proper scrummaging.
Technically I agree, but in the length of time they absorb, I think there is room for change. Ideally a solution that requires the scrum to be formed and the ball to be fed within a certain time of the scrum being awarded (20 seconds? 30 seconds?), with the scrum then taking its course. Same with resets. Too much time is spent faffing in the set up.

Sadly my plans fall down; all that would happen is that as soon as a scrum was awarded, a prop or hooker from each side would suddenly need attention, or the change a contact lens etc...

At the end of the day, the actual scrums tend not to be dull, but their formation, and re-formation do and use up far too much of the 80 minutes.

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Re: Scrum reform-your reactions?

Post by LessThanSte » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:13 pm

Or turn the clock off until the front rows come together. Baggy shirts, also, for props!

I remember reading an article by Gianluca Vialli a few years ago, where he had measured the length of football matches where there was actual play taking place. If i recall correctly, it was in the vicinity of 60 minutes. I suspect you'd barely make 40 for some rugby matches these days.
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Re: Scrum reform-your reactions?

Post by Hot_Charlie » Tue Jan 13, 2015 11:21 pm

LessThanSte wrote:Or turn the clock off until the front rows come together.
The problem with that is you still get the delay. Yes, you get more "game time", but half the crowd have fallen asleep in the meantime.

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Re: Scrum reform-your reactions?

Post by Norfolk & Goode » Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:33 am

There is absolutely no doubt that the scrum is a farce and a hot bed of cheating/playing the ref every single game by every single team. In a Bath game pre-Christmas it took 72 minutes before the ball came out the back of the scrum, a total joke.

I believe the current laws are adequate, and a simple solution is to forcibly change the mindset of the pack by using 2 refs at each scrum. There is no way that any ref can manage/referee top level scrummaging adequately, that is why so much cheating is blatantly practised. No wonder so many crooked feeds are let go if there are concerns that distract the ref elsewhere. Same with the wheeling and binding, without xray eyes what can the RFU expect?

2 refs co-ordinating their responsibilities will identify the free kick/penalty offences much quicker, therefore packs will have to return to a fair contest or face being swiftly penalised rather than another boring re-set. The second ref would simply be the assistant referee whose running touch, he would be on the opposite side of the scrum to the ref, and return to touch once the scrum is over.

Changing the laws (apart from the time limit) will only bring new ways of cheating, or worst - kill the scrum which is an integral part of the game.

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Re: Scrum reform-your reactions?

Post by tigerburnie » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:32 am

Hang on a minute, we pretty much invented modern scrummaging at Tigers, we introduced most of the "cheating that goes on". For decades we have been(and still are on occasions)the grand masters at the "dark arts" (both in the scrum and the lineouts) and I for one don't see any need what so ever for change. Part of Rugby Union is scrums(and lineouts), if you don't like them, go watch rugby league.
Some seem to think that scrums are "just a way to restart games", oh how little those people know about Rugby Union, the entire tone and often the out come of a game is decided come scrum time. Yes I'm an ex forward so maybe I might appreciate what is going on in there, but where are the "knowledgeable Tigers fans" these days. For years we played 10 man rugby, with Deano and then many of his succesors driving the heart out of the opposition. All Tigers need to do is re learn how to hold onto the ball and scrum and maul the very lives out of the opposition.
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Re: Scrum reform-your reactions?

Post by Iain » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:41 am

It simply has to be that the clock stops until the scrum is set to stop it being a vehicle for time wasting. That would cure a multitude of problems with the scrum.

We must avoid anything that pushes scrums towards what they have become in League. Scrums are supposed to be a pushing competition, making rugby a union a game where even the slow big lads have a role they can play in it, so it needs to be kept that way.

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Re: Scrum reform-your reactions?

Post by tigerburnie » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:45 am

Iain wrote:It simply has to be that the clock stops until the scrum is set to stop it being a vehicle for time wasting. That would cure a multitude of problems with the scrum.

We must avoid anything that pushes scrums towards what they have become in League. Scrums are supposed to be a pushing competition, making rugby a union a game where even the slow big lads have a role they can play in it, so it needs to be kept that way.
I'd add that the scrummies should be penalised for crooked feeds and hookers punished for foot up. Nice to have straight throws into the lineouts too, both Barf and Quinns repeatedly threw in squint.Touch judges need to get involved as the second ref more in both areas. The laws of the game are fine, it's their application that is causing some folk some stress.
There's a bit of a party atmosphere around Bath this afternoon - but you wouldn't get that at Leicester if we finished ninth." Richard Cockerill 7/5/16

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Re: Scrum reform-your reactions?

Post by ellis9 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:46 am

Or turn the clock off until the front rows come together. Baggy shirts, also, for props!

I remember reading an article by Gianluca Vialli a few years ago, where he had measured the length of football matches where there was actual play taking place. If i recall correctly, it was in the vicinity of 60 minutes. I suspect you'd barely make 40 for some rugby matches these days.
I think it's 28 minutes on average. I think Austin Healey spoke about it months ago on Rugby Tonight.

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Re: Scrum reform-your reactions?

Post by Will S » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:54 am

Very difficult to make work but I think if we could make the pitches slightly bigger it would help solve the problem. With more space teams would have more opportunity to find gaps away from the scrum so would be less scrum focused. The forwards would also have more ground to cover so to survive would have to work on fitness rather than bulking up. Maybe artificial, or semi-artificial pitches may also help with less collapsed scrums.

As mentioned this would be very difficult to implement but would make for a more interesting spectacle.

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Re: Scrum reform-your reactions?

Post by tigerburnie » Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:58 am

ellis9 wrote:
Or turn the clock off until the front rows come together. Baggy shirts, also, for props!

I remember reading an article by Gianluca Vialli a few years ago, where he had measured the length of football matches where there was actual play taking place. If i recall correctly, it was in the vicinity of 60 minutes. I suspect you'd barely make 40 for some rugby matches these days.
I think it's 28 minutes on average. I think Austin Healey spoke about it months ago on Rugby Tonight.
I don't take anything Austin says as factual, he is paid to be controversial and often displays a surprisingly low level of knowledge of what he is actually looking at. Typical journo/pundit really.
There's a bit of a party atmosphere around Bath this afternoon - but you wouldn't get that at Leicester if we finished ninth." Richard Cockerill 7/5/16

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Re: Scrum reform-your reactions?

Post by Noddy555 » Wed Jan 14, 2015 11:24 am

They are always tinkering with the scrum the RFU and Premiership seem obsessed by it. The recent changes they have made have re-introduced the art of hooking. Hooking is a difficult position, I know I started out as a hooker before changing to a scrum half. I think they should leave well enough alone for at least the next 3 seasons to see how things are progressing. Scrummaging is not just one big shove but the ability to take and give pressure in order for your hooker to cleanly hook the ball. Perhaps we need to look more closely at the work of the props especially those who constantly turn inwards even before the ball enters the scrum.

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Re: Scrum reform-your reactions?

Post by kend » Wed Jan 14, 2015 3:24 pm

Ian McGeechan suggests the following:
Get rid of the hit at the scrummage and go back 20 years so that the front rows go down on their own first. They bind and lock, and then the back five come in afterwards with their weight. You take away the hit and the illegal drive before the ball comes in. It would be far easier for referees
Should also be easier to see whether the props are keeping the drive straight. Would also be simple to trial at U19 and national league level.

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Re: Scrum reform-your reactions?

Post by GETHIN EXILE » Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:09 pm

The biggest problem in the scrum is that the team who are not putting in rarely attempt to hook the ball, rather their hooker adds his weight to the drive in an attempt to knock the other team over. If the law clearly written as "when the ball is thrown in the hookers attempt to hook the ball" rather than the current wording which allows a prop to hook the ball or one hooker to do nothing but push. I remember in my playing days 30 years ago hookers regularly wore shin pads as in a true hooking contest you were likely to clash with your opposite number!!
As another poster has said if the front rows were made to bind up before the remainder of the packs joined them it would take away the "hit" which would mean that unstable scrums would be a rarity. The art in the old days of the props being able to support the hooker without him having to push as well as attempt to hook the ball made for a far safer scrum.

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Re: Scrum reform-your reactions?

Post by tigerburnie » Wed Jan 14, 2015 5:58 pm

But there isn't a "hit" any more...................
There's a bit of a party atmosphere around Bath this afternoon - but you wouldn't get that at Leicester if we finished ninth." Richard Cockerill 7/5/16

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