A bit of perspective

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Doghashadhisday
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A bit of perspective

Post by Doghashadhisday » Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:08 am

This is simply my observation. It seems that of the regular posters there only seems to be JGriffin, Tigerburnie, Tigerlad and Ourla (plus one or two others) who seem to have a sense of perspective and patience whilst most others seem to lose their heads. It is always fun on Monday on the forum. If we lose the same culprits come on asking for sackings, dismissing the effects of the injuries, how far we are behind Saints, Sarries, Bath and Quins of having just game plan A. If we win then the happy clappers think all is well in the world.

My own perspective is that the best time to judge Cockers is when he has the majority of the squad available for a run of games or at the end of the season. 20 players out affects the ability to train and plan for matchdays. The constant disruptions and players playing out of position is bound to affect our performances.
Some believe we are already out of the European Cup after Saturdays defeat and claim we should be like Saints, Bath etc who are light years ahead of us but
Wasps, Sale and Bath have lost both their games
Saints, Sarries, Tigers have won one and lost one
Quins are the only team to have won both their games.
Are Bath not on a 3 game losing streak? Should their coaches be sacked. In fact based on the over-reaction on this forum it is only Conor O'Shea who should keep his job based on the results in Europe.

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Re: A bit of perspective

Post by tigerburnie » Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:46 pm

Doghashadhisday wrote:This is simply my observation. It seems that of the regular posters there only seems to be JGriffin, Tigerburnie, Tigerlad and Ourla (plus one or two others) who seem to have a sense of perspective and patience whilst most others seem to lose their heads. It is always fun on Monday on the forum. If we lose the same culprits come on asking for sackings, dismissing the effects of the injuries, how far we are behind Saints, Sarries, Bath and Quins of having just game plan A. If we win then the happy clappers think all is well in the world.

My own perspective is that the best time to judge Cockers is when he has the majority of the squad available for a run of games or at the end of the season. 20 players out affects the ability to train and plan for matchdays. The constant disruptions and players playing out of position is bound to affect our performances.
Some believe we are already out of the European Cup after Saturdays defeat and claim we should be like Saints, Bath etc who are light years ahead of us but
Wasps, Sale and Bath have lost both their games
Saints, Sarries, Tigers have won one and lost one
Quins are the only team to have won both their games.
Are Bath not on a 3 game losing streak? Should their coaches be sacked. In fact based on the over-reaction on this forum it is only Conor O'Shea who should keep his job based on the results in Europe.
Far too much common sense in there, I was waiting to see what response you got, maybe are a few are in the pub getting some inspiration or dutch courage........................ :smt002
There's a bit of a party atmosphere around Bath this afternoon - but you wouldn't get that at Leicester if we finished ninth." Richard Cockerill 7/5/16

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Re: A bit of perspective

Post by Coops » Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:59 pm

We are 8th in the league - same points as Quins; 1 point behind Glos and Wasps; and 6 points behind 4th spot. I'm sure we've been in a worse position and still finished in the top 4. Whilst the target should be a top 4 finish, if that isn't achievable then top 6 must be to qualify for Europe.

As far as current European campaign is - played 2, won 1, lost 1. Who else has done that - let me see - Saracens, Clermont, Scarlets, Northampton and Ospreys. Not bad company that IMO?

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Re: A bit of perspective

Post by Big Dai » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:07 pm

Personally, three game losing streak or not, I would be happier if Bath's coach was taken out and shot! Nasty little type who lures his offspring back into the fold with promises of trophies and European domination. And as for the well groomed so and so who ..............don't get me started

In fact I would be happy if the whole first team squad at the rec caught a nasty dose of the trotting disorders before the next round of the premiership!

A curse on the blue, black and white!

As for the position of our peers in Europe and the company we keep. "You can tell a man that boozes, by the company he choses, and the pig got up and slowly walked away."

...............OK I'm off on one again.............but does anyone else think our tactics are limited and could do with a shake up? It's not the defeat but the manner of it that sickens?
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Re: A bit of perspective

Post by Phil B » Tue Oct 28, 2014 8:35 pm

“but does anyone else think our tactics are limited and could do with a shake up?”

We could do with winning a little more, that’s a fact.
I have noticed that in the first 10 minutes or so of most matches that I have seen this season we have tried to play expansive rugby. But it hasn’t paid off. I can see we are trying, and that’s important (to me).
I rate Cockers. Period. I think he is a good bloke. I have no idea whether he is to blame for our current ills. But I doubt that he is. He only wants success for Tigers, as do we all.
We have the players………..We have the will……..We don’t have the luck at the moment, and our performances are far too erratic.
Surely we understand that those who govern the Club know that as well, and understand that we are not currently “at the races” so to speak.
We are unlikely to win anything this season – let’s be practical. On current form we don’t deserve to.
But let’s have confidence in the Board, and the management team.
As for the players, well if you don’t perform, then maybe you know what is next.
And for what Big Dai is saying, I agree 100%. If we play well and lose, then so be it. But if we play like totally un-coordinated amateurs, well that’s simply not acceptable.
I could agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.

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Re: A bit of perspective

Post by sapajo » Tue Oct 28, 2014 10:52 pm

At the end of the day you are only as good as your last game :smt023
Without hope we are nothing, keep the faith, a Tiger for eternity

jamiewilkinson
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Re: A bit of perspective

Post by jamiewilkinson » Wed Oct 29, 2014 7:20 am

couldn't agree more Doghashadhisday, over the years I have come to expect a slow start to the season. That mixed with the amount of injuries to our starting 15 and further down, I really don't expect us to be pushing 4th place just yet.
sapajo wrote:At the end of the day you are only as good as your last game :smt023
Always knew you were a saints fan :smt002

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Re: A bit of perspective

Post by 4071 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 8:26 am

Doghashadhisday wrote: ... how far we are behind Saints, Sarries, Bath and Quins

...claim we should be like Saints, Bath etc who are light years ahead of us.
You know, I don't think anyone believes that the likes of Saints, Sarries, Bath, Quins or whoever are light years ahead of us.

I'm just not sure why you (among others) think that they should be light years ahead of us before we are allowed to have concerns.

Tigers are the biggest club in England and one of the biggest in Europe. We should not be waiting until we are light years behind anyone before we start to have concerns. We should always be seeking to hold on to the advantages we have and always seeking to improve and stay ahead of the opposition. And if we can see things that other teams are doing better than us, or we can see that other teams are moving in a positive direction whilst we seem to be stalling or regressing, then we need to change BEFORE they leave us behind.

Is it better to identify failings early and try and prevent them getting worse, or do we have to wait until we finish mid-table and fail to qualify for Europe before we start changing things and try rebuilding from a low base?

And I'm not saying we will finish mid-table this season. Ours is a slow decline because we still have the momentum of a big club. But the best way to reach that point is to ignore negative trends by finding excuses and insisting that the best thing to do is wait and see how much worse it can get.

If you see an iceberg on the horizon, better to change course early.



EDIT: And I'm not one of those insisting that we should sack Cockerill. However, I do believe that it's getting to the point where he will have his contract terminated well before his 5 years are up. And this is only because when the iceberg appeared on the horizon, he didn't change course. I like Cockerill. I just think that he needed a lot better and more experienced support in the past and he needed enough humility to change when he was heading in the wrong direction.

Back to the iceberg metaphor, if you change course slightly well in advance, you will avoid disaster. If you wait until it's right on top of you, then you end up having to take extreme measures and you still might end up sinking. Cockerill is running out of time and so are Tigers. It would be a pity if previous warning signs were ignored and we end up losing a talented coach because we need to take extreme measures to avoid a disaster.

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Re: A bit of perspective

Post by jgriffin » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:28 am

I am going to wait and see because I cannot see into the future and I am not party to the Board's deliberations. I will be at the next AP games and will see for myself if there have been changes in attack. I have already seen changes in defence, and I am more than satisfied that most of our forward play is sound, especially set piece. I am also pleased that Ben has joined the Board, the Tigers tradition being renewed and strengthened.
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Doghashadhisday
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Re: A bit of perspective

Post by Doghashadhisday » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:35 am

jgriffin wrote:I am going to wait and see because I cannot see into the future and I am not party to the Board's deliberations. I will be at the next AP games and will see for myself if there have been changes in attack. I have already seen changes in defence, and I am more than satisfied that most of our forward play is sound, especially set piece. I am also pleased that Ben has joined the Board, the Tigers tradition being renewed and strengthened.
This is what I mean. You are willing to wait and make a considered judgement rather than a knee-jerk reaction. There seems to be no patience or taking account of contributory factors. But then again it is only my opinion.

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Re: A bit of perspective

Post by BengalTiger » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:40 am

As far as a bit of perspective goes we should be noting the costs incurred by two of the teams who seem to be on the up at the moment, without outside money they would still be mediocrities as far as the English rugby is concerned
Tigers are trying to remain competitive, whilst developing the ground and balancing the books, a very difficult task
The current injury crisis is highlighting the difficulty of the task but a task that has on the whole been well done over the past few seasons, let us see how it all pans out over the next few seasons, I think Tigers have the right model, Toulon have shown that you can buy success but when the money stops, and it will at some stage, then the teams with sugar daddies but few supporters will be the ones crying.

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Re: A bit of perspective

Post by 4071 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:43 am

Doghashadhisday wrote:
jgriffin wrote:I am going to wait and see because I cannot see into the future and I am not party to the Board's deliberations. I will be at the next AP games and will see for myself if there have been changes in attack. I have already seen changes in defence, and I am more than satisfied that most of our forward play is sound, especially set piece. I am also pleased that Ben has joined the Board, the Tigers tradition being renewed and strengthened.
This is what I mean. You are willing to wait and make a considered judgement rather than a knee-jerk reaction. There seems to be no patience or taking account of contributory factors. But then again it is only my opinion.
But how long do you wait?

There have been warning signs well in advance, but instead of taking steps to address any issues (particularly in terms of player development, squad cohesion, player retention and injuries) there has always been excuses and a call to wait. Plus pointing at the fact that we were always in the Premiership final.

The theory that the on-field success justifies everything Cockerill does is only sound so long as we have on-field success. So when we win the Premiership, that justifies his way. And when we don't win the title but reach the final, that also justifies his way. And when we don't reach the final, but we narrowly lose the SF, that also justifies his way. And when we fall further and further behind in Europe, there are plenty of excuses to hand. And when we start falling behind in the Premiership, there are plenty of excuses to hand. But suggesting that we are heading in a downward direction (which we are) and that we need to reverse that trend sooner rather than later is 'knee-jerk'.

We have to wait until we are actually sinking before reacting.

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Re: A bit of perspective

Post by 4071 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 9:49 am

BengalTiger wrote: I think Tigers have the right model, Toulon have shown that you can buy success but when the money stops, and it will at some stage, then the teams with sugar daddies but few supporters will be the ones crying.
Perhaps the Saracens model is not sustainable (their losses are astronomical), but that does not mean that the Leicester model is the right one.

You mention that Toulon have shown that it is possible to buy success, but that there are dangers with that policy. When the money stops, so does the success.

But how is that different from the Leicester policy?

The main difference is that Toulon have more money to spend, but the Leicester model of simply buying in a big ready-made squad is precisely the same as Toulon's, only on a much lower budget. Ours is financially sustainable, so there is less worry about the money drying up, but demonstrably less successful. Simply because buying success on a low budget won't get you success against teams with a similar model and a higher budget.

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Re: A bit of perspective

Post by baz1664 » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:05 am

Isn't the removal of Paul Burke a knee jerk reaction, if he has been removed due to the current form then why doesn't the rest of the current regime face the same fate, he was of course part of many trophy winning set ups, anybody have any reason or rationale why Burke was given the boot?

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Re: A bit of perspective

Post by sapajo » Wed Oct 29, 2014 10:12 am

baz1664 wrote:Isn't the removal of Paul Burke a knee jerk reaction, if he has been removed due to the current form then why doesn't the rest of the current regime face the same fate, he was of course part of many trophy winning set ups, anybody have any reason or rationale why Burke was given the boot?
We will never know the truth and therefore can only ever speculate unless the club comes out publicly to explain their decision making.
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