Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein.
Hearing Cockers post match state "we'll carry on doing what we do: is a concern. For 3 games we've run the ball into rucks and mauls until we cough up a knock on or a turn over. We then get knackered because we don't let the ball do the work and leak tries all over the place.
So, Plan A: When attacking run the ball into contact. Pass the ball from the ruck so flat that the defence line speed smashes us backwards. Kick the ball away.
Plan B: ???
Whenever we keep the ball out of contact (eg: last 10 mins versus Glos, pre-season friendlies for about as much time) we go forward. Players don't seem to be allowed to play this sort of game when our oppos are, hence the tries we concede.
A great example was when Youngsy made that awesome break and looked for support to off load, no-one was there!! Turn over ball!! The flair is there, I suspect it's coached out of them in favour of following Plan A.
There is enough quality with the fit players we have, including those out of position, so I suggest drafting in no more coaches for the players, but getting a shrink in for the coaches!
So, I haven't posted on the forums in a long time, and have just been visiting the past few weeks to see what the score was.
It seems that Rose Tinted Glasses are still an essential requirement for anyone posting, or else you are lambasted as clueless and not a "True Fan"
It seems that we are treading old water again (really old), so I thought I would have a dredge through the tomes of historical forum posts and bring you some of the past wisdom;
3 seasons ago, you could have written an analysis of our play and read it after the game against Toulouse (and Gloucester) and it would have been perfectly valid.
This clearly points to one of two scenarios;
Our coaches are too stupid to learn; I don't think MoC nor Cockers are stupid
Our coaches are too proud and stubborn to change!
Personally, I think there have been too many occasions in our recent coaching history (Loffreda, Back, Keys, Meyer, Herring etc) to assume that Cockers will actually work with anybody above him, or anybody who threatens or questions his ability or methods.
Nothing changes. Like you say Norfolk, 'tis the perfect definition of insanity...
When MOC was here he was essentially the main man as Head Coach (note the title). He didn't stay just a few minutes, nor was he backward at asserting himself.
When Loffreda got the push it wasn't due to Cockers (or Cockers alone), but he had to pick up the mess while the Board sorted out the disputants.
Meyer left, but many here felt he would've got the push for his Plan A no Plan B.
So frankly your argument leaks a bit. Or a lot.
In the first half of the last decade, Tigers warm-up was a trot round the pitch and a few drills. The game has moved on. We are neither using the same game plans NOR can we go back to the'good old days' (where we were struggling to assert dominance at times over Wasps in particular, or even further back, not as good as Barf etc). So I don't want to go back. It wasn't that hot, folks.
Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.
Every year we start slowly, every the same old bilge is trotted out about how poor we are and every year we get in the top 6 and qualify for Europe. Every year we get in the top four and are in the playoffs for the final, last year for the first time in a decade, we failed by one point away to the eventual champions. Where is the failure that the glory seekers are constantly whingeing on about?
We are four games into a new season, it ain't a sprint, it's a marathon, if we are still losing after Christmas, then I will also be concerned. Right now we need to get some spine and get behind the team not come on here slagging the players and coaches and bleating like we have some divine right to win every game. Every year the same people start moaning before the first team has even taken the field. We are supreme above all others at constantly peaking at the right time and stringing together the results to reach the playoffs, no one else comes close. We are in a hole just now, we are not in a good place when the Champions Cup is only a couple of weeks away, with the injury crisis we have, we will have to suck it up and fight for results, I think the side needs our encouragement, not kicking when they are down.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
We are in the hardest league in the world (IMHO), so easy games are basically 2 a a season. The results this year have proven that any side is capable of being beaten by another. Which leads me to ...
The good old "This isn't a sprint, its a marathon". Well, we aren't running in a fun run, and when 4 sides have taken off like a scolded cat, we will need a spectacular effort to pull back. Which leads me to...
Normally, we get a good leg up during the AIs and 6Ns because our squad is pretty good and even our squad players are more than good enough to beat 90% of the AP sides out there. This year however, between what can only be described as a staggeringly large injury list and the general incoherency in our play, I think we could be well and truly stuffed. I hope I am wrong, I really do, but never before have I felt such a feeling of impending dread in our forthcoming matches.
We seem to be replaying our mistakes from past seasons, on the pitch and behind the scenes. To this end, and by what Norfolk asked, we are purveying "Insanity".
adamv6 wrote:We are in the hardest league in the world (IMHO), so easy games are basically 2 a a season. The results this year have proven that any side is capable of being beaten by another. Which leads me to ...
The good old "This isn't a sprint, its a marathon". Well, we aren't running in a fun run, and when 4 sides have taken off like a scolded cat, we will need a spectacular effort to pull back. Which leads me to...
Normally, we get a good leg up during the AIs and 6Ns because our squad is pretty good and even our squad players are more than good enough to beat 90% of the AP sides out there. This year however, between what can only be described as a staggeringly large injury list and the general incoherency in our play, I think we could be well and truly stuffed. I hope I am wrong, I really do, but never before have I felt such a feeling of impending dread in our forthcoming matches.
We seem to be replaying our mistakes from past seasons, on the pitch and behind the scenes. To this end, and by what Norfolk asked, we are purveying "Insanity".
With our current player availability, who is going to be in the AI's? We are not likely to have anyone in the England side apart from YBY maybe, Owen isn't likely to be playing for Wales, we might lose a couple of our Italians at the most. Get a couple back from injury and Marcos back from the Championship and we could be in exactly the place want to be. Sarries ran off like a scolded cat last year and won nothing, so I would suggest people just support with the same sort of vigour that some like to moan, then we will be fine.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
Sarries ran off like a scolded cat last year and won nothing
This is a true and undeniable fact. But they were top of the table, and in Heineken Cup Final and AP Final. We got knocked out of the HC again in the groups and didn't make the final.
so I would suggest people just support with the same sort of vigour that some like to moan, then we will be fine.
... and back to the "If you moan, you're not a true fan, just have faith and accept the mediocrity".
But for a contentious last minute try they could have been champions!
Even though they "won nothing" they annihilated us at there gaff and played with a miserly grip on defence that we all bemoaned but secretly envied.
Wake up and smell the Remy! Happy clapping support won't pull us through this, not this time. Changes are required. A period of rebuilding is required. Fresh thinking is required. This will cost defeats, These would be dignified defeats with a end game in mind. Not the application of Elastoplast over old seeping and septic wounds.
Exile Wigstonite living in Wales.
Poet laureate of the "One Eyed Turk".
Bar stool philosopher in the "Wilted Daffodil"
TB has not been a Happy-Clapper, and i have been far from it in the past. However, the current situation is so dire that a belief in miracles is beyond either of us I suspect. Patience is needed.
If, at the end of the day, we miss out but have recovered massively, then considered thought can be given - and Cockers his cards if needs be. The Smudge school of reclaiming the glory days is simply selective memory and wishful thinking.
Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.
Norfolk & Goode wrote:Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Albert Einstein.
Hearing Cockers post match state "we'll carry on doing what we do: is a concern. For 3 games we've run the ball into rucks and mauls until we cough up a knock on or a turn over. We then get knackered because we don't let the ball do the work and leak tries all over the place.
I think you are interpreting his statement wrongly. All he is saying is that he isn't going to get in a panic, he isn't going to radically change the way the team is trained or the way he coaches/directs and that he isn't going to radically change the game plan. And the record of recent years suggests that is the right thing to do.
The problem he is at the moment is that the players aren't helping him or themselves with some of their basic errors. Burns allowing himself to get charged down, players knocking on, players falling off tackles, players kicking out on the full. There are some legitimate excuses but not all. And that I think is what Cockerill is driving at. Let's work to improve what we have rather than thinking radical.
adamv6 wrote:... and back to the "If you moan, you're not a true fan, just have faith and accept the mediocrity".
I have never accepted mediocrity where I can do something about it, as of yet I've not said anyone is not a true fan this year, I may well do so if I think it's deserved. Our past success has attracted people from all over to support the Tigers, to bask in the reflected glory, like Man Utd and Chelsea for example. Now when the glory appears to fade, some will no doubt go elsewhere, fine, thanks and goodbye. But for those of us born in the town/county, whose team is the Tigers no matter what, then we will always support the side, through thick and thin, like we always have. There are fans of clubs in the game who have been relegated, or fallen from grace for years, there are clubs who have never had the sort of success we have had. I doubt they all stop supporting, or start slagging their side off.
Sure some have had a moan, only last year the Sinners shut their fans forum amid cries for their coaches to be sacked. I guess those complaining are feeling pretty stupid just now.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
jgriffin wrote:TB has not been a Happy-Clapper, and i have been far from it in the past. However, the current situation is so dire that a belief in miracles is beyond either of us I suspect. Patience is needed.
If, at the end of the day, we miss out but have recovered massively, then considered thought can be given - and Cockers his cards if needs be. The Smudge school of reclaiming the glory days is simply selective memory and wishful thinking.
Patience? There's been too much patience. You're right though. You can't just rebuild the glory days "just like that". I think we agree that this will take time but the plan and the end game have to be visible, tangible, committed. Too often we've seen others adapt whilst we plough the same muddy furrow.
I don't believe, and it is belief for I have no proof, that bad luck alone has got us into this mess. Therefore where do I look for a solution? What are the other contributing factors other than pure chance?
Exile Wigstonite living in Wales.
Poet laureate of the "One Eyed Turk".
Bar stool philosopher in the "Wilted Daffodil"
Is part of our "insanity" a fixation on winning this and every season?
Have we perhaps become wrapped up too tightly in the expectation that every season we will be "there or there abouts"?
Looking at the teams that have emerged as front runners (and have perhaps dare I say it started to overtake us) over the last few years, both domestically and in Europe, what I see are teams who have developed and are delivering on a long term plan.
Sarries - Barf - Stains - (to a lesser extent, but impressive non the less Exeter) - any and almost all French teams - Leinster - all are teams with a long term vision. This vision is not (or at least was not) about winning in previous seasons but about building strength to give dominance in the future. In some cases this is starting to pay off.
In contrast our focus appears to me to be "get through this season at the top because failure is not an option". This means short term signings to fill gaps in the squad (often key positions), keeping some players beyond their "sell by date", focussing on a push at the end of every season at the expense of the start, and even perhaps our pre-season training and player conditioning (which I suspect might have an impact on our injury record, which year on year seems to have the same pattern).
Many of us (Tigerburnie, Big Dai for instcne) have been on the forum since it was set up and I know have been following the team for an age and can, I'm sure see patterns over the longer term.
We will remember the defeat in Cardiff in '97 - and how much it hurt.
We really were shambolic, from the pre match warm up to the end of the match. But it seemed to spur on a culture change in the club - the emergence of a vision which drove the club to produce a team which became dominant three years later with the first of back to back HCs and became the team everyone looked to for inspiration as to what "professional " meant. It didn't happen over night but there was a vision which drove the club forward and developments within it with 52 successive home wins and a stack of silverwear.
I think for instance Deano stepped down as club captain at the end of the 97 season and Johno took over, we saw the emergence of Lewis Moody from bench warmer to first team regular, recruitment of Pat Howard, Ben Kay, Martin Corry and changes in coaching - happy to be corrected.
My premise is that I believe those golden years then became a habit and the fear of losing that dominance became over time the driving force in the club rather than the desire to reach the top. In short, having reached the vision, we lost sight of the need to create a new one.
Consequently maybe the pressure to win every season (and I'm as guilty here as any of us) puts pressures on the club to set the horizon too close rather than looking further ahead? Perhaps the longer term focus has been on other aspects of developing the club at the expense of the playing side?
Where are the long term strategic signings? Where is the long term coaching evolution to develop our style of play? Where is the long term development of the club culture - other than "this is the Leicester way" or a strap line that we are "world class"?
I'm not saying this is THE answer to our current woes (a few fit players would help), but we do seem to have a pattern of results over recent seasons and over all outcomes, which are not suggesting we are travelling in the same way as other clubs who are "going somewhere".
Lots of people have called for sackings as a result of our current poor form - but this is really a call for change in the short term (and we have seen it every year for the past four or five). Perhaps the real change we need is to accept a lower return for a season or two with a view to establishing another four or five year dynasty of success (both domestic and European) in the medium to long term?
Not trying to start arguments - just chatting rugby like.
I used to sit near a stalker and we want him back "kick for the corner!!!!"
To continually uphold that things should remain the same is to deny the fact that things are going wrong. Dear, Dear Richard that's just not on. In the past I have been one of your staunchest supporters and I was particularly pleased when you got the job in 2009, but situations change all the time and
even if tigers change their systems and as a result perform better, there's no saying that others who are currently succesful will change again to keep ahead of the game. I remember when heavier and taller wingers and centres became de riguer, some clubs who had smaller but faster people changed their tactics to combat this problem. The game is forever changing and at least you must keep up with it or better still remain 1 or 2 steps ahead.
