The game has moved on

[Smurphswillgetya]

Voice of the Crumbie you are deluded and living on past glories. The Bath game shows the glory days are gone and everyone has moved on. Even if we lift the title or get to the final we will only be papering over the cracks and hiding the deficiencies in our coaches and in particular the DoR. Drastic action is required before it is too late. We should change the coaching staff after every defeat this season.

[voice of the crumbie]

Voice of the Crumbie you are deluded and living on past glories. The Bath game shows the glory days are gone and everyone has moved on. Even if we lift the title or get to the final we will only be papering over the cracks and hiding the deficiencies in our coaches and in particular the DoR. Drastic action is required before it is too late. We should change the coaching staff after every defeat this season.

Smurphs, love the tongue in cheek reply. I'm happy in my deluded little world in which I'll trust those employed to manage /coach the team until such time they give me cause not to. I sense the board feel the same way too. Remember they sacked Deano and Loffreda and I'm sure they would take action re Cockers if they felt it was necessary.

[bc]

Unfortunately Saturdays result has been coming, I have been saying this for a while. Saracens last season was a warning.
I honestly believe that we have a playing squad that stands up in quality to any of the top sides, what we lack is the coaching. It is criminal that, with the backs we have, our back play has been sterile for 2 years and has certainly been surpassed by others.
I am sorry to say that our coaching structure is not up to the job. Ultimately the buck stops at the Tigers management who I believe have lost touch over the last few years - probably focused on ensuring the ground development does not bring us down.
I don't believe that Cockers has the strategic thinking power to develop a playing philosophy beyond -crash, bang wallop. He certainly does not surround himself with coaches of proven quality.
Paul Burke - kicking coach is now backs coach. Do we really believe that he will stand up to Cockers when it comes to innovative back play - no.
Geordan Murphy - one of the lads 2 years ago
Richard Blaze - forced out of the game at a very early age.

Really our coaches have no experience beyond Tigers and that is not good. Tigers should be busting a gut to Daryl Gibson back, currently highly successful as backs coach for the Super 14 winners the Warratahs.

I have no doubt this post will be roundly trashed but lets not forget that the 2 Tiger senior teams that played over the last 3 days have scored 21 points and conceded 97!

By the way the problems go deeper than senior level. The Academy are losing players to other clubs due to their 'old fashioned' insistence that players have to 'board' at 16. Not great if you are already at a school and want to focus on A levels before committing. Other clubs academies can accommodate this but not Tigers. This will now cost Tigers because they are not producing players that get into the senior squad.

So to summarise, we have the players but the management have lost their focus and the coaching is not up to the mark.

[bc]

Unfortunately Saturdays result has been coming, I have been saying this for a while. Saracens last season was a warning.
I honestly believe that we have a playing squad that stands up in quality to any of the top sides, what we lack is the coaching. It is criminal that, with the backs we have, our back play has been sterile for 2 years and has certainly been surpassed by others.
I am sorry to say that our coaching structure is not up to the job. Ultimately the buck stops at the Tigers management who I believe have lost touch over the last few years - probably focused on ensuring the ground development does not bring us down.
I don't believe that Cockers has the strategic thinking power to develop a playing philosophy beyond -crash, bang wallop. He certainly does not surround himself with coaches of proven quality.
Paul Burke - kicking coach is now backs coach. Do we really believe that he will stand up to Cockers when it comes to innovative back play - no.
Geordan Murphy - one of the lads 2 years ago
Richard Blaze - forced out of the game at a very early age.

Really our coaches have no experience beyond Tigers and that is not good. Tigers should be busting a gut to Daryl Gibson back, currently highly successful as backs coach for the Super 14 winners the Warratahs.

I have no doubt this post will be roundly trashed but lets not forget that the 2 Tiger senior teams that played over the last 3 days have scored 21 points and conceded 97!

By the way the problems go deeper than senior level. The Academy are losing players to other clubs due to their 'old fashioned' insistence that players have to 'board' at 16. Not great if you are already at a school and want to focus on A levels before committing. Other clubs academies can accommodate this but not Tigers. This will now cost Tigers because they are not producing players that get into the senior squad.

So to summarise, we have the players but the management have lost their focus and the coaching is not up to the mark.

[mol2]

I might argue that we have appointed a defence coach who clearly needs some time to put strategies in place. Perhaps appointed a year or two late but at least that's now been addressed.

I would argue we need a forwards/scrummaging coach. This was not the first time our pack has been pushed around in the last couple of seasons. OK Balmain is no Dan Cole but we were hardly short of internationals in the pack on Saturday!

Do we really need to wait as long as we did for a defence coach?

Does it take an analyst to look at how Saracens defend - I don't mean the positioning but the attitude. "Make a tackle, then immediately back up and return to position with urgency to make the next." Some of our forwards make a tackle and then take a leisurely stroll back.

[The Boy Dave]

I think some are being too harsh on Cockerill.
He may not be everyones cup of tea but things are hardly being made easy for him.
Firstly he was not given the best of starts to his coaching career but managed to muddle through and keep things on track.
As far as the game moving on is concerned how is a coach supposed to keep evolving a team in such unsettled circumstances.
That A league show last night was absolutely shambolic, there is a constant call for youth to be given opportunities but no-one put their hand up at all in terms of quality.
I can possibly accept that an age gap might create a physical advantage but not to the extent I saw last night, that was a championship reserve team they were playing and in terms of quality we should have been much closer and had Worcester not eased off it could have been a cricket score.
This is bringing about a desperate need to go out and find quality players under a salary cap that just does not allow a club to go and buy world class players, his own imports need time to settle.
All this puts pressure on the main playing squad to compete and no doubt has contributed to injuries, it's all linked in my opinion.
Players cost money and the better the player the higher the cost.
Everything relates to the above, defence, attack, attitude, camaradarie, etc.
On the scrummaging I find it very odd as Balmain is without doubt the best young prop we have got and he is struggling, personally I think the scrum is not working as a unit and there are weak links in there which you canno't afford since the rule changes but again this is brought about by the constraints aleady mentioned, money, quality within, injuries.
It's obvious to see when you put the puzzle together some of the pieces are not fitting as they should, no doubt a fully fit Tigers 1st team will compete with anyone and I think we all know this, but the weakness elsewhere is having a massive impact on our ability to put a fully fit squad out at present and the ability to keep evolving the squad and the playing style.

[tigerburnie]

I think some are being too harsh on Cockerill.
He may not be everyones cup of tea but things are hardly being made easy for him.
Firstly he was not given the best of starts to his coaching career but managed to muddle through and keep things on track.
As far as the game moving on is concerned how is a coach supposed to keep evolving a team in such unsettled circumstances.
That A league show last night was absolutely shambolic, there is a constant call for youth to be given opportunities but no-one put their hand up at all in terms of quality.
I can possibly accept that an age gap might create a physical advantage but not to the extent I saw last night, that was a championship reserve team they were playing and in terms of quality we should have been much closer and had Worcester not eased off it could have been a cricket score.
This is bringing about a desperate need to go out and find quality players under a salary cap that just does not allow a club to go and buy world class players, his own imports need time to settle.
All this puts pressure on the main playing squad to compete and no doubt has contributed to injuries, it's all linked in my opinion.
Players cost money and the better the player the higher the cost.
Everything relates to the above, defence, attack, attitude, camaradarie, etc.
On the scrummaging I find it very odd as Balmain is without doubt the best young prop we have got and he is struggling, personally I think the scrum is not working as a unit and there are weak links in there which you canno't afford since the rule changes but again this is brought about by the constraints aleady mentioned, money, quality within, injuries.
It's obvious to see when you put the puzzle together some of the pieces are not fitting as they should, no doubt a fully fit Tigers 1st team will compete with anyone and I think we all know this, but the weakness elsewhere is having a massive impact on our ability to put a fully fit squad out at present and the ability to keep evolving the squad and the playing style.

Good points made, if we are still in this position come the end of this year I too will no doubt be worried. Each year we start poorly, including before Cockers took over, but each year we peak at the right time. The days of winning the league by Christmas are gone, not least because they put the playoffs in to stop it happening again. Patience is something I seem to have to ask for every year and pretty much the same people every year trot out the same hysterical rubbish. The season is not judged at the start of it, nor should the coaches or players.

[MurphysLaw]

I think there is often a confusion between the game moving on, and how the other clubs and the competitiveness of the league has changed.

I'm not completely sure, but I think the game has been 'tweaked', but really is much the same. As Glaws found out last season, you can have as much talent in the backs as you want, but unless you have a ball-winning set of forwards you'll struggle. Ok arguably, the game has got a bit faster, largely in order to breach strong, well organised, defences. But it is fundamentally the same.

Are Tigers coaches and support staff poor in comparison with others? Several posters on here seem to think so. Perhaps we have been light on specialist coaches, when compared to the likes of Sarries or Bath who seem to have a small army of ex-players backing up their Head Coach. We did not replace MOC last season, and have perhaps belatedly appointed a defence coach, who is now trying to bed in. Saints really seem to have benefitted from have King as their backs coach.
(as an aside have Tigers lost their fitness/physio - the big fella who comes on for injuries - haven't seen him this season)

What has undeniably changed over the last few years, and has imo a far greater effect on Tigers, is the levelling off of the Clubs in terms of their resources - training facilities, academy set-ups, conditioning, playing squads, and coaching set-ups. The wage cap, and the shared distribution of revenues has had the desired effect of making the league into a much more level playing field where, on their day, most clubs can beat any other(one or two exceptions). A couple of clubs, funded by millionaire owners, are probably now better resourced than Tigers, despite our tremendous following.

For this reason, I don't think any one club will be dominant over a sustained period, as Bath and then Tigers once were.It is all the more remarkable imo that Tigers have managed to be so consistent over the last 10 years. In recent years Sarries, Tigers, Quins, and Saints have been successful, but none have dominated. Will Saints retain the Aviva this year? They must have a chance, but it won't be easy. What Tigers, or any club needs, is a bit of good fortune with injuries, and consistent levels of performance with that little something to provide an 'edge'over the competition. That's the challenge to the coaches and the Board.

[tigerburnie]

I think there is often a confusion between the game moving on, and how the other clubs and the competitiveness of the league has changed.

I'm not completely sure, but I think the game has been 'tweaked', but really is much the same. As Glaws found out last season, you can have as much talent in the backs as you want, but unless you have a ball-winning set of forwards you'll struggle. Ok arguably, the game has got a bit faster, largely in order to breach strong, well organised, defences. But it is fundamentally the same.

Are Tigers coaches and support staff poor in comparison with others? Several posters on here seem to think so. Perhaps we have been light on specialist coaches, when compared to the likes of Sarries or Bath who seem to have a small army of ex-players backing up their Head Coach. We did not replace MOC last season, and have perhaps belatedly appointed a defence coach, who is now trying to bed in. Saints really seem to have benefitted from have King as their backs coach.
(as an aside have Tigers lost their fitness/physio - the big fella who comes on for injuries - haven't seen him this season)

What has undeniably changed over the last few years, and has imo a far greater effect on Tigers, is the levelling off of the Clubs in terms of their resources - training facilities, academy set-ups, conditioning, playing squads, and coaching set-ups. The wage cap, and the shared distribution of revenues has had the desired effect of making the league into a much more level playing field where, on their day, most clubs can beat any other(one or two exceptions). A couple of clubs, funded by millionaire owners, are probably now better resourced than Tigers, despite our tremendous following.

For this reason, I don't think any one club will be dominant over a sustained period, as Bath and then Tigers once were.It is all the more remarkable imo that Tigers have managed to be so consistent over the last 10 years. In recent years Sarries, Tigers, Quins, and Saints have been successful, but none have dominated. Will Saints retain the Aviva this year? They must have a chance, but it won't be easy. What Tigers, or any club needs, is a bit of good fortune with injuries, and consistent levels of performance with that little something to provide an 'edge'over the competition. That's the challenge to the coaches and the Board.

Good post.

[floridaboy]

I'm not sure the question makes sense, as it implies there is a homogeneous way of playing that Tigers need to move toward. There isn't; Saracens are different to Harlequins who are different to Saints and so on.

It just isn't possible to be all things simultaneously; you can't press the 'Saints' button for the first half and the 'Sarries' button for the second. The styles of play need different coaching and different personnel.

Perhaps Tigers game is a bit less dynamic than Quins or has fewer broken field runners than Bath. But which team scored more tries than either of those last season? The narrative doesn't necessarily match the reality.

As a coach, you may have an vision of how you want the side to play, but you are constrained by the players you have (or can reasonably get). The Tigers of recent times do seem to be able to evolve while staying at the top of the pile. It's a trait to be treasured rather than condemned. To change in a revolutionary way is painful and risky. Quins didn't develop their approach overnight - as another poster pointed out, it took a relegation and the cathartic experience of bloodgate. Be careful what you wish for?

Yes saints and sarries are different, they are better than us for a start !