Tigers use of the bench

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mightymouse
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Tigers use of the bench

Post by mightymouse » Wed Jan 01, 2014 12:26 pm

This season Tigers seem to use the bench very sparingly.

Now I know that we have a massive list of injuries but even in positions where we have strength in depth we are very reluctant to use the bench.

For me the most obvious of these omissions is Mele. There are times when Ben Youngs passing is very poor , he lacks the pace he once had to make the searing break and he he far too ponderous at the breakdown which laeds to our overwhelming quantity of possession being bogged down in slow play.

Mele brings an urgency and tempo to the game and I find it remarkable that he does not make even a brief appearance from the bench

bc
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Re: Tigers use of the bench

Post by bc » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:10 pm

I thought use of the bench against Sale was poor. Apart from Bowden's enforced change with Matt Smith coming on I think the only other change was Lamb for Williams. This was despite Deacon limping around and missing the Gaskell tackle which then led to a Sale try.
Also as was mentioned, I would have thought Mele would have a say in the latter parts of the game.
If we are not using our bench I think this then puts added pressure on players to seek other clubs to get a look in.

longlivethecrumbie
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Re: Tigers use of the bench

Post by longlivethecrumbie » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:12 pm

bc wrote:I thought use of the bench against Sale was poor. Apart from Bowden's enforced change with Matt Smith coming on I think the only other change was Lamb for Williams. This was despite Deacon limping around and missing the Gaskell tackle which then led to a Sale try.
Also as was mentioned, I would have thought Mele would have a say in the latter parts of the game.
If we are not using our bench I think this then puts added pressure on players to seek other clubs to get a look in.
If memory serves Crane came on for TTT during the second half too.

I tend to agree though and our use of our replacement props has dropped off since the loss of Castro. Briggs has had fleeting appearences at hooker from the bench in most games but Balmain, Boris, Schuster or whoever the other replacement prop is don't get much game time at all from the bench, which is a shame. Plenty of other clubs (Quins, Saints et al) will invariably empty their bench, even if the player coming on is a youngster and a little raw.

sapajo
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Re: Tigers use of the bench

Post by sapajo » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:25 pm

This thread title should read "Tigers non use of the bench" for a club that has reportedly the strongest in depth squad in the premiership our lack of use of the bench is remarkable and lamentable :smt017
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wormus
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Re: Tigers use of the bench

Post by wormus » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:38 pm

This was widely aired on the "No discussion of today's game "
and Sale made substitutes - four at 50 minutes , two at 60 minutes and one at 70 minutes. Source Daily Telegraph.
Someone even suggested not substituting a poor playing Ben Youngs with Mele in case he got injured!!! Please use the Subs wisely - fresh legs win matches.

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Re: Tigers use of the bench

Post by Tigerbeat » Thu Jan 02, 2014 1:43 pm

wormus wrote:Please use the Subs wisely - fresh legs win matches.
Did we lose the game against Sale? :smt017

Sale needed to make the changes as they were the side chasing the game. The Tigers subs will be fresher when they are called upon, and injury free!!

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kornboy130
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Re: Tigers use of the bench

Post by kornboy130 » Thu Jan 02, 2014 2:53 pm

Tigerbeat wrote:
wormus wrote:Please use the Subs wisely - fresh legs win matches.
Did we lose the game against Sale? :smt017

Sale needed to make the changes as they were the side chasing the game. The Tigers subs will be fresher when they are called upon, and injury free!!

:smt023
Did we also concede 2 tries in the 2nd half and fail to get the bonus point we really should have done? Did we drop off in the 2nd half?

I don't often agree with sapajo but we don't use our bench as much as we perhaps should - perhaps we will when it resembles something closer to full strength with Logo, Hawkins, Parling etc all back in the mix.

mightymouse
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Re: Tigers use of the bench

Post by mightymouse » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:02 pm

oddly Lamb on for Williams and Crame on for thomas are possibly the last to subs I would made!

Mele was the obvious one

Boris is an excellent scrummager and although not quite up to Marcos's brilliance around the park I would be careful of not wear out Marcos especially as he is now doing a very full international round. briggs and fraser have never really let us down.

De Chaves would have been better than an injured Louis at the end

and I agree about the try leaking and bonus issues - yes the ref was also to blame but we need to get smarter about our use of subs

I do look forward to getting back logo and Mafi very shortly and get our team and our bench even stronger

However some of our main players - BY and DC for example need to realise their are quality plyers who could easily take their place and they will not realise that if those players are not used off the bench.

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Re: Tigers use of the bench

Post by Tigerbeat » Thu Jan 02, 2014 4:44 pm

Fresh legs can also lose matches.......moves, calls and player integration breaks down.

Remember conceding 14 points a couple of seasons ago against Irish?.

Changes can sometimes be disruptive. Props may have fresh legs but sometimes there opposite number is a stronger scrummager.
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speedski
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Re: Tigers use of the bench

Post by speedski » Thu Jan 02, 2014 8:50 pm

The whole Mele situation is driving me nuts. He adds a whole heap of pace at the breakdown that we are seriously lacking from 20+ minutes into the game.

I can't help but think his early season feeding frenzy is still being used against him. Players like him loose motivation if all they ever do is turn up to warm up.

Here's hoping he gets a good run this weekend...

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Re: Tigers use of the bench

Post by Smurphswillgetya » Thu Jan 02, 2014 9:57 pm

speedski wrote:The whole Mele situation is driving me nuts. He adds a whole heap of pace at the breakdown that we are seriously lacking from 20+ minutes into the game.

I can't help but think his early season feeding frenzy is still being used against him. Players like him loose motivation if all they ever do is turn up to warm up.

Here's hoping he gets a good run this weekend...
You forget that Ben Youngs is missing for nearly half the season due to Internationals and hence it makes sense to play him when he is available. Mele will get his chance and will be first choice when Ben is away. If Flood is available why would we want to play Williams? If Tom Youngs is available why would you want another hooker.

As for substitutions if you are winning why would you want to bring someone else on. Surely people are not suggesting that modern players are not fit enough to last a whole game. If we start with our best available 15 surely unless there is an injury or tactics need to change we should stick with them to see us through the game. Or are people suggesting we do what Mallinder was doing over the last few seasons and substitute players at set times and end up losing games!
Of course this is my own opinion and other posters may have a different perceived factual viewpoint.

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Re: Tigers use of the bench

Post by Tigerbeat » Thu Jan 02, 2014 10:06 pm

Smurphswillgetya wrote:
speedski wrote:The whole Mele situation is driving me nuts. He adds a whole heap of pace at the breakdown that we are seriously lacking from 20+ minutes into the game.

I can't help but think his early season feeding frenzy is still being used against him. Players like him loose motivation if all they ever do is turn up to warm up.

Here's hoping he gets a good run this weekend...
You forget that Ben Youngs is missing for nearly half the season due to Internationals and hence it makes sense to play him when he is available. Mele will get his chance and will be first choice when Ben is away. If Flood is available why would we want to play Williams? If Tom Youngs is available why would you want another hooker.

As for substitutions if you are winning why would you want to bring someone else on. Surely people are not suggesting that modern players are not fit enough to last a whole game. If we start with our best available 15 surely unless there is an injury or tactics need to change we should stick with them to see us through the game. Or are people suggesting we do what Mallinder was doing over the last few seasons and substitute players at set times and end up losing games!
Nice post...substitutions are not always necessary.

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mightymouse
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Re: Tigers use of the bench

Post by mightymouse » Fri Jan 03, 2014 11:00 am

I agree except not substituting players who are playing badly for a better option (mele ) is bonkers.

and yet instead sub thomas who was playing well with crane who did little is equally odd

Boris is very very rarely out scrumaged!

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Re: Tigers use of the bench

Post by speedski » Fri Jan 03, 2014 4:17 pm

Smurphswillgetya wrote:
speedski wrote:The whole Mele situation is driving me nuts. He adds a whole heap of pace at the breakdown that we are seriously lacking from 20+ minutes into the game.

I can't help but think his early season feeding frenzy is still being used against him. Players like him loose motivation if all they ever do is turn up to warm up.

Here's hoping he gets a good run this weekend...
You forget that Ben Youngs is missing for nearly half the season due to Internationals and hence it makes sense to play him when he is available. Mele will get his chance and will be first choice when Ben is away. If Flood is available why would we want to play Williams? If Tom Youngs is available why would you want another hooker.

As for substitutions if you are winning why would you want to bring someone else on. Surely people are not suggesting that modern players are not fit enough to last a whole game. If we start with our best available 15 surely unless there is an injury or tactics need to change we should stick with them to see us through the game. Or are people suggesting we do what Mallinder was doing over the last few seasons and substitute players at set times and end up losing games!
Im not saying they are not fit enough, but I am questioning why we are seeing just so many injuries - is there are case that more rotation, not just for the obvious international gaps during play, even for just the last 20 isn't beneficial?

I don't doubt changing while winning is unnecessary to an extent, but you have to ask just why, with all the expert equipment and facilities why so many are getting injuries and niggles.

We've been letting teams back in in the final quarter of late, its no coincidence that the opposition are substituting and changing up the game, we're struggling to adapt when that happens.

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Re: Tigers use of the bench

Post by mightymouse » Mon Jan 06, 2014 8:38 am

2 players came on yesterday an made a difference to the tempo of the game which helped us haul back to a draw - who? - Suprise suprise - Mele and Thomas - My only question now is why did we leave it so late to bring them on?!

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