Urban Myths

[Tigerref]

Whilst us Tiger's fans are clear more intelligant than the average rugby fan, thought I'd bring your attention to a couple of urban myths.

Did you know.

That when a player dives on the ball in open play you don't have to let him up.

Also that if the ref awards a second penalty (for example for dissent or not back 10) you can take that secone penalty quickly?

[Tiger_in_Birmingham]

Whilst us Tiger's fans are clear more intelligant than the average rugby fan, thought I'd bring your attention to a couple of urban myths.

Did you know.

That when a player dives on the ball in open play you don't have to let him up.

Also that if the ref awards a second penalty (for example for dissent or not back 10) you can take that secone penalty quickly?

First point - only have to let him up if diving when retreating to the ball played behind the defence IIRC, just falling on a dropped pass in open play is free reign.

Second point yes, although often the referee won't allow it as they'll want to be having a word with the player/captain of the team committing the penalty.

[iceman_19]

Whilst us Tiger's fans are clear more intelligant than the average rugby fan, thought I'd bring your attention to a couple of urban myths.

Did you know.

That when a player dives on the ball in open play you don't have to let him up.

Also that if the ref awards a second penalty (for example for dissent or not back 10) you can take that secone penalty quickly?

I'm not suggesting you're wrong (from your name I guess you are more qualified than I am!) BUT

1) If you dive on the player on the ground as a sort of 'tackle' you will get pinged as diving off your feet, correct? So the only 2 options in that situation are either letting him up and tackling him, or just going straight for the ball - the latter being the preferable option.

2) Really? How come we never see scrum halves taking quick taps following a second penalty for not retreating? Again, I'm sure you're correct and can find no reference to the 'law' on the IRB website, but that seems to be common knowledge that you can't take a second quick tap.

[loretta]

Interesting. My understanding has always been that if a quick tap penalty is taken and the defence hasn't retired and impedes play, resulting in the penalty being moved 10m further forward, that 2nd penalty cannot then be taken as a tap-and-go.

It looks like I may be wrong again - I should be getting used to it by now.

[Tigerref]

Whilst us Tiger's fans are clear more intelligant than the average rugby fan, thought I'd bring your attention to a couple of urban myths.

Did you know.

That when a player dives on the ball in open play you don't have to let him up.

Also that if the ref awards a second penalty (for example for dissent or not back 10) you can take that secone penalty quickly?

ILaw 21 Penalty and Free Kicks
21.7 WHAT THE OPPOSING TEAM MUST DO AT A PENALTY KICK
(d) Interference. The opposing team must not do anything to delay the penalty kick or obstruct the kicker. They must not intentionally take, throw or kick the ball out of reach of the kicker or the kicker’s team mates.
Sanction: Any infringement by the opposing team results in a second penalty kick, 10 metres in front of the mark for the first kick. This mark must not be within 5 metres of the goal line. Any player may take the kick. The kicker may change the type of kick and may choose to kick at goal. If the referee awards a second penalty kick, the second penalty kick is not taken before the referee has made the mark indicating the place of the penalty'm not suggesting you're wrong (from your name I guess you are more qualified than I am!) BUT

1) If you dive on the player on the ground as a sort of 'tackle' you will get pinged as diving off your feet, correct? So the only 2 options in that situation are either letting him up and tackling him, or just going straight for the ball - the latter being the preferable option.

2) Really? How come we never see scrum halves taking quick taps following a second penalty for not retreating? Again, I'm sure you're correct and can find no reference to the 'law' on the IRB website, but that seems to be common knowledge that you can't take a second quick tap.

Ice man I'm impressed with part one.

Law 14 Ball on the Ground - No Tackle
14.1 PLAYERS ON THE GROUND
(a) A player with the ball must immediately do one of three things:
• Get up with the ball
• Pass the ball
• Release the ball.

14.2 PLAYERS ON THEIR FEET
(a) Falling over the player on the ground with the ball. A player must not intentionally fall on or over a player with the ball who is lying on the ground
Here's the law -as you say he can't fall on or over him - but 14.2 makes no referance to letting him up.

Point 2 - TThe quick tap

[Tigerref]

The quick one;

Law 21 Penalty and Free Kicks
21.7 WHAT THE OPPOSING TEAM MUST DO AT A PENALTY KICK
(d) Interference. The opposing team must not do anything to delay the penalty kick or obstruct the kicker. They must not intentionally take, throw or kick the ball out of reach of the kicker or the kicker’s team mates.
Sanction: Any infringement by the opposing team results in a second penalty kick, 10 metres in front of the mark for the first kick. This mark must not be within 5 metres of the goal line. Any player may take the kick. The kicker may change the type of kick and may choose to kick at goal. If the referee awards a second penalty kick, the second penalty kick is not taken before the referee has made the mark indicating the place of the penalty


So once the mark is made - away you go. (Refs will sometimes slow the 2nd mark for management purposes

[fleabane]

Where's Brian Moore when you need him?

[Tigerref]

Where's Brian Moore when you need him?

There are places on the web for refs (and all sorts of other strange hobbies!)

Brian Moore is a frequent visitor to one called rugbyrefs.com - he is very open to learning from the refs community (as well as beibg a harsh critic!)

[Norfolk & Goode]

That when a player dives on the ball in open play you don't have to let him up.

If the player tries to get up with the ball then it's exactly as you say.

If a player dives on the ball then releases the ball (before the defender gets his hands on him) and can't get to his feet as he is impeded, the opponent is "Playing an opponent without the ball. Except in a scrum, ruck or maul, a player who is not in possession of the ball must not hold, push or obstruct an opponent not carrying the ball" Law 10.4(f).

Isolated players often release then get to their feet over the ball and ruck off the defender to bide time rather than have the ball jackalled. This is also why defenders tend to go for the ball rather than the player in this situation to prevent the penalty.

Is that correct TigerRef?

[Bristol Tiger]

Did you know.

That when a player dives on the ball in open play you don't have to let him up.

The root of this myth is that once upon a time (when I played) you DID have to let the player get back up.

I still remember an England game where Jeremy Guscott ran back, dived on a bouncing ball and was immediately tackled (whilst on the ground) - and had a penalty awarded against him. Turned the game and was clearly incorrect. Nowadays that would be fine of course ...

[Jim__2]

Well that satisfies my inquisitive side wondering, over the AI's, why players haven't been pinged re. not having to let a player up!

[Tiger90]

1. You must allow the player the opportunity to play the ball, if they choose to stay lying on the floor then you may go for the ball.

2. Correct, if a team is marched back, the second penalty may not be taken quickly. You can run it, but have to let the defence set first.

[tig1]

A rule that has me confused is the tackle in goal, held up, scrum five.

I can understand that being the case if the tackler preventing the try is on his feet. but that is extremely rarely the case.

What you almost always see is one, or multiple defenders, all off their feet, preventing the attacker physically playing the ball (for a try). The defenders make no attempt to regain their feet, and invariable play the the ball while lying on the ground to prevent the try. Essentially referees allow a free for all in the in-goal area.

Do the tackle laws from the field of play not apply in the in-goal area ?

[Tyzot]

There really are a lot of urban myths - mostly I think because we remember the laws from several years ago - or how we think that natural justice would dictate - sadly there are lots of examples of where that does not seem to apply..

Re Tiger90 2. Correct, if a team is marched back, the second penalty may not be taken quickly. You can run it, but have to let the defence set first.

This is not true - you can take successive quick penalties if wanted - the only caveat is that the retreating defence cannot be called as offside if they are really retreating.

However, the tap must be taken at the mark and in practise it usually takes the ref a short time to get to the spot to mark it, often preventing the quick pen. Also many refs like to slow it down to regain order after a not 10 decision etc.

[Tyzot]

What do you all think of this scenario:

The attacking team kick the ball forward into the in goal area and it stops 1 metre inside the touch line. The attacking winger runs round the outside of the flag, reaches back in field and whilst standing off the pitch exerts downward pressure on the ball before a defender arrives.

Decision?

Law 22.4(g)

Try.

One I where would have lost the bet and likely to cause lively debate when it happens!