Transfer Rumours Thread 2013/2014 Season

[TomWeston]

whilst continuing to develop our academy, which only London Irish seem to be on a similar par with.

Where is the 'Not sure if serious' icon?

Surely that is the 'not-not sure if serious' icon.

[MrPartridge]

If Allen is off to Leinster we will need an inside centre.

Not going to happen thankfully - have it on V. good authority that although Leinster are interested, he plans to stay with us.

Hamilton has been a great servant to the club but I don't mind if he goes in all honesty. If I had a say I'd match Castres offer for Goneva, even if that meant giving up on the likes of Scotty, Scully and Camacho to keep him. Goneva may drop the ball from time-to-time but he is a proven game winner. I'd love to see us go with a back-line next season of:

Youngs, unnamed fly-half , Goneva, Allen, Manu, Benjamin and Tait

(and that leaves plenty in reserve: Mele, Lamb, Morris, Bowden and Thompstone, plus a few academy players who look prospects).

[PM76]

When there is up to 240k extra to the salary cap available for clubs that develop their own players it strikes me as foolish not to utilise that. Whilst a side like Quins or Sarries are able to claim the full 240k because of their policy of bringing home-grown Academy graduates into their first team squad, Tigers (by my estimate) are only eligible for 90k. When we're constantly talking about the limits of the cap it seems odd that we're happy to pursue a policy that allows some of our rivals to spend up to 150k more than us on players.

I was under the impression that that spending allowance was made available for having a certain number of academy graduates of any age in the squad. So, for Tigers, the likes of Deacon, Smith, Croft etc. allow Tigers to spend this extra money. Or does the 240K have to be spent directly on recent (ie. more recent than Manu, YBY etc.) academy graduates??

[4071]

When there is up to 240k extra to the salary cap available for clubs that develop their own players it strikes me as foolish not to utilise that. Whilst a side like Quins or Sarries are able to claim the full 240k because of their policy of bringing home-grown Academy graduates into their first team squad, Tigers (by my estimate) are only eligible for 90k. When we're constantly talking about the limits of the cap it seems odd that we're happy to pursue a policy that allows some of our rivals to spend up to 150k more than us on players.

I was under the impression that that spending allowance was made available for having a certain number of academy graduates of any age in the squad. So, for Tigers, the likes of Deacon, Smith, Croft etc. allow Tigers to spend this extra money. Or does the 240K have to be spent directly on recent (ie. more recent than Manu, YBY etc.) academy graduates??

It's for players 24 or under who have been at the club since before their 18th birthday and are in the first team squad.

So the likes of Deacon, Smith, Croft, Cole, etc aren't included. The allowance is for clubs that are currently bringing through Academy players, not ones that used to do so.

I think we're just looking at Tuilagi, Harrison and Ben Youngs. Maybe Ryan Bower, if he's officially first team, but as he never plays for us that would be a waste of first-team salary anyway.


Players who WOULD have been eligible are the likes of Alex Lewington (5 tries in 11 games this season for London Irish), Andy Forsyth (2 tries in 11 games this season for Sale), Jimmy Stevens (3 tries in 10 games this season for London Irish), Jonny Harris (5 games this season for London Irish) and George Ford (2 tries in 12 games this season for Bath. Unfortunately they left over the summer to be replaced by imported players who don't give us any dispensation under the cap.

[tigerburnie]

Players who WOULD have been eligible are the likes of Alex Lewington (5 tries in 11 games this season for London Irish), Andy Forsyth (2 tries in 11 games this season for Sale), Jimmy Stevens (3 tries in 10 games this season for London Irish), Jonny Harris (5 games this season for London Irish) and George Ford (2 tries in 12 games this season for Bath. Unfortunately they left over the summer to be replaced by imported players who don't give us any dispensation under the cap.

I think I'd rather have players that help us win away in France than players who would get us a bit of salary compensation, we only keep the best ones and replace where we have to.

[4071]

Players who WOULD have been eligible are the likes of Alex Lewington (5 tries in 11 games this season for London Irish), Andy Forsyth (2 tries in 11 games this season for Sale), Jimmy Stevens (3 tries in 10 games this season for London Irish), Jonny Harris (5 games this season for London Irish) and George Ford (2 tries in 12 games this season for Bath. Unfortunately they left over the summer to be replaced by imported players who don't give us any dispensation under the cap.

I think I'd rather have players that help us win away in France than players who would get us a bit of salary compensation, we only keep the best ones and replace where we have to.

The likes of Camacho, Hepetema, Briggs, Bristow and Williams you mean? Players imported for this season in the same positions as those Academy players we lost, none of whom featured for a single second in the win in France. And most of whom have barely featured at all!

We discard Academy players who are squad-standard because we 'only keep the best' and then sign squad-standard imports in bulk so that we have the depth to compete all season.

Crazy idea: Keep the Academy players and develop them properly. That way we have the same squad depth for less money (they tend to be cheaper than imports) AND the extra allowance under the cap!

And sometimes those squad-level Academy players can develop further and turn out to be first XV standard. Will Collier at Quins, for example. Same age as Ryan Bower and behind him at both U18 and U20 level for England, but improving with game time and now Quins' first choice tighthead ahead of Paul Doran-Jones! At just 22!

Actually, Quins just got home and away wins against a French side whilst starting with six players who qualify under the Academy dispensation scheme - Marler (23), Collier (22), Matthews (22), Wallace (23), Smith (23) and Walker (21) - and with three more on the bench (Sinckler, Trayfoot and Lindsay-Hague). Walker was originally in Tigers' academy, but left to join Quins just before his 18th birthday. He was the try-scoring MOTM in their last win over Racing, his second score in two games against them.

Obviously, I don't want to sound like a Quins fan-boy, and they are far and away the best team in the Premiership for successfully utilising home-grown young talent, so I could instead compare us to that South-African import company, Saracens.

They have a 3-0-1 record in the HC this year - the same as us - and have done so whilst fielding six players who qualify under the Academy dispensation scheme (Jamie George, 4 games; George Kruis, 4 games; Jackson Wray, 2 games; Will Fraser, 1 game; Owen Farrell, 4 games and Ben Ransom, 1 game). This compares to one player for Tigers (Ben Youngs).

[sapajo]

Players who WOULD have been eligible are the likes of Alex Lewington (5 tries in 11 games this season for London Irish), Andy Forsyth (2 tries in 11 games this season for Sale), Jimmy Stevens (3 tries in 10 games this season for London Irish), Jonny Harris (5 games this season for London Irish) and George Ford (2 tries in 12 games this season for Bath. Unfortunately they left over the summer to be replaced by imported players who don't give us any dispensation under the cap.

I think I'd rather have players that help us win away in France than players who would get us a bit of salary compensation, we only keep the best ones and replace where we have to.

This compares to one player for Tigers (Ben Youngs).

Thought Manu, Tom Croft, Tom Youngs, Sam Harrison and Dan Cole were all ex Tigers academy? Or apart from Ben Youngs do they cannot qualify because of their respective ages?

[sam16111986]

You can't hold onto every academy graduate in the hope they'll come good. Ford, Forsyth, Harris, Stevens and Lewington were all offered first team rugby elsewhere and took it. Ford was back up to Toby as he would have been this season and didn't want to fight his way into the 10 shirt so left. Forsyth is not as good as Allen, Bowden, Manu or Smith and so was unlikely to get game time. Harris has been worse than the other LI props that wouldn't get in our team anyway.

The two we failed on in my view were Lewington and Stevens. Lewington is exactly the kind of player we need currently as he can play wing and 15 has a good skill set and gas. Why he was left at Notts whilst in excellent form all last season is a real mystery. Stevens is a good young hooker who may well have stayed had he been given some game time and made third choice this season. Being told you are spending another season as 4th choice with little chance for game time was not going to impress him.

The measure of first team by the RFU standard is reflected by game time isn't it? May be that the likes of Pohe or Purdy will qualify by the end of the season.

[tigerburnie]

Players who WOULD have been eligible are the likes of Alex Lewington (5 tries in 11 games this season for London Irish), Andy Forsyth (2 tries in 11 games this season for Sale), Jimmy Stevens (3 tries in 10 games this season for London Irish), Jonny Harris (5 games this season for London Irish) and George Ford (2 tries in 12 games this season for Bath. Unfortunately they left over the summer to be replaced by imported players who don't give us any dispensation under the cap.

I think I'd rather have players that help us win away in France than players who would get us a bit of salary compensation, we only keep the best ones and replace where we have to.

The likes of Camacho, Hepetema, Briggs, Bristow and Williams you mean? Players imported for this season in the same positions as those Academy players we lost, none of whom featured for a single second in the win in France. And most of whom have barely featured at all!

We discard Academy players who are squad-standard because we 'only keep the best' and then sign squad-standard imports in bulk so that we have the depth to compete all season.

Crazy idea: Keep the Academy players and develop them properly. That way we have the same squad depth for less money (they tend to be cheaper than imports) AND the extra allowance under the cap!

And sometimes those squad-level Academy players can develop further and turn out to be first XV standard. Will Collier at Quins, for example. Same age as Ryan Bower and behind him at both U18 and U20 level for England, but improving with game time and now Quins' first choice tighthead ahead of Paul Doran-Jones! At just 22!

Actually, Quins just got home and away wins against a French side whilst starting with six players who qualify under the Academy dispensation scheme - Marler (23), Collier (22), Matthews (22), Wallace (23), Smith (23) and Walker (21) - and with three more on the bench (Sinckler, Trayfoot and Lindsay-Hague). Walker was originally in Tigers' academy, but left to join Quins just before his 18th birthday. He was the try-scoring MOTM in their last win over Racing, his second score in two games against them.

Obviously, I don't want to sound like a Quins fan-boy, and they are far and away the best team in the Premiership for successfully utilising home-grown young talent, so I could instead compare us to that South-African import company, Saracens.

They have a 3-0-1 record in the HC this year - the same as us - and have done so whilst fielding six players who qualify under the Academy dispensation scheme (Jamie George, 4 games; George Kruis, 4 games; Jackson Wray, 2 games; Will Fraser, 1 game; Owen Farrell, 4 games and Ben Ransom, 1 game). This compares to one player for Tigers (Ben Youngs).

I think our track record of results on the field would show we are head and shoulders above anyone in the premiership in managing our squad, we are after all the current Champions and have been in how many premiership finals in the last..say nine years compared to anyone else?
Our management team know what they are doing and silly side swipes at them is doing nothing to further our cause.

[4071]

The measure of first team by the RFU standard is reflected by game time isn't it? May be that the likes of Pohe or Purdy will qualify by the end of the season.

Purdy can't (he joined after the age of 18) and Pohe won't. Cockerill won't pick him because he's too inexperienced. When he got onto the bench in a Premiership match due to all the injuries, we lost Hamilton to injury during the match. Cockerill preferred to bring a SH off the bench to play out of position than to bring Pohe into the centres and shift Thompstone out to the wing. Outside of the LV Cup, we won't be seeing Pohe on the pitch this season.

[4071]

I think I'd rather have players that help us win away in France than players who would get us a bit of salary compensation, we only keep the best ones and replace where we have to.

This compares to one player for Tigers (Ben Youngs).

Thought Manu, Tom Croft, Tom Youngs, Sam Harrison and Dan Cole were all ex Tigers academy? Or apart from Ben Youngs do they cannot qualify because of their respective ages?

I was referring to players who have played in the HC this season. Manu and Harrison have played in the Premiership and both qualify. I mentioned this earlier.

Croft, Cole and Tom Youngs do not qualify due to age.

[4071]

I think our track record of results on the field would show we are head and shoulders above anyone in the premiership in managing our squad, we are after all the current Champions and have been in how many premiership finals in the last..say nine years compared to anyone else?
Our management team know what they are doing and silly side swipes at them is doing nothing to further our cause.

Granted, our management team get the results. I'd rather have them than any other set of coaches in the Premiership when it comes to grinding out the important wins and targetting the tail end of the season.

However, that does not mean that they do everything right and there are no areas of improvement.

Quins and Sarries both won Premiership titles in the last three seasons whilst ALSO bringing more and more home-grown players into the squad. We won the last title. That's great. But a title does not mean that the club is doing everything right and everyone else is doing it wrong. Because 24 months ago Sarries were Champions. 12 months ago Quins were Champions. In 12 months' time it might be Saints (shudder). Pointing to a trophy as justification for every decision made and as justification for current transfer policy is very black-and-white. And leaves you a little stranded for support in the seasons when we don't win titles (which is actually most of them).

[MurphysLaw]

[quote="4071"][quote="tigerburnie"]
I think our track record of results on the field would show we are head and shoulders above anyone in the premiership in managing our squad, we are after all the current Champions and have been in how many premiership finals in the last..say nine years compared to anyone else?
Our management team know what they are doing and silly side swipes at them is doing nothing to further our cause.[/quote]

Granted, our management team get the results. I'd rather have them than any other set of coaches in the Premiership when it comes to grinding out the important wins and targetting the tail end of the season.

However, that does not mean that they do everything right and there are no areas of improvement.

Quins and Sarries both won Premiership titles in the last three seasons whilst ALSO bringing more and more home-grown players into the squad. We won the last title. That's great. But a title does not mean that the club is doing everything right and everyone else is doing it wrong. Because 24 months ago Sarries were Champions. 12 months ago Quins were Champions. In 12 months' time it might be Saints (shudder). Pointing to a trophy as justification for every decision made and as justification for current transfer policy is very black-and-white. And leaves you a little stranded for support in the seasons when we don't win titles (which is actually most of them).[/quote]

All this regurgitated again - previously posted exactly the same stuff on another thread.
No team has a better record of squad management over the last ten years.
Still not enough though for some people who have a hobby horse and want to have a pop!

[tigerburnie]

No one is perfect(me excluded of course), but I tend to trust the record of our management on matters such as players in/exclusion, they are after all involved with them on a daily basis. We on the other hand make our decisions based on...............................(insert your chosen expletive here....)

[Loob19]

Any rumours out there?