Transfer Rumours Thread 2013/2014 Season

[tigerburnie]

You're missing a vital point here, George Ford wanted to leave and play in his dads team, now I understand that, but don't start trying to make out it is somehow anybody elses fault that he now plays for Barf. Is he better at Barf than if he had stayed with us? well we will never know now.

[4071]

You're missing a vital point here, George Ford wanted to leave and play in his dads team, now I understand that, but don't start trying to make out it is somehow anybody elses fault that he now plays for Barf. Is he better at Barf than if he had stayed with us? well we will never know now.

Have you considered that Ford wants to play for England and that the departure of 12T was something of a watergate.

It was always that players would come to Tigers or stay at Tigers because that was the best place for them to be if they had international ambitions. A player was more likely to be considered for further honours if he was playing at Tigers, constantly competing at the top end of the domestic game.

The departure of 12T - consistently underutilised and poorly treated at Leicester - and his immediate promotion into the England squad and subsequently the Lions touring party may have been the first sign that a player with international ambitions might be better off elsewhere.

Ford was getting game time at Leicester and featured in several cup finals. But he may have looked at the example of 12T and thought that he would be better served elsewhere if he wanted to play internaitonal rugby.

If he is elevated into the EPS this season, that would certainly justify his move as 12T's move was justified last season.


Poor player management and development can have a slow but debilitating effect. It's easy to dismissively say that Ford just wanted to play with Daddy and take advantage of some nepotism. But we are talking about a player whose talent has been obvious since we poached him as a 15-year old from Leeds. Five years ago he was coming to Tigers because it was the best place to develop as a player. Now he's leaving Tigers because - as is apparent from his progress this season - Tigers is no longer seen as the best place to fully develop.

This is worrying.

[Will S]

I'm sorry that his burning desire for this player based on past seasons is irrational. How long does a player have to be out of form before he's classed as a poor bet? 1 season, 2 seasons? No! He was a good junior but he has failed to develop as a senior player to the standard demanded of a Tiger's no. 10, and at 23 maybe he is beginning to run out of time. George
Ford is 3 years younger and a far better player

Ford was rubbish last season, had awful kicking stats and looked shaky in most areas. Should he have been written off (and this was in a team which was playing well and providing him a good platform, unlike Glos)??? No, he has come back to form well as will Burns.

[thebearisstilldeano]

Whilst there are some good points being made all round ref Twelvetrees and J Ford we should all accept they are being made with the benefit of hindsight - but hindsight isn't always as clear as we think.

Until the day Twelvetrees announced he was off to Glaws it was accepted that he had signed for us (indeed Cockers believed he had agreed to re-sign I seem to recall).

On form Ford was no-where near international standard last year before he decided to go South to play happy families - and he was second in line at Tigers because we had the incumbent England 10 playing for us.

In both cases the issue of game time has been retrospectively cited as the reason for the move - yet this applies to any player in any squad in any club who sits behind a better player (OK we can all agree to disagree about who might be which at any given position at Tigers).

What no one is honest about is also the matter of money. this is what really drives the transfer market. I'm happy of course to concede if anyone can confirm either of the wunderkinds made a move for less money than they were on (or were offered ) at Tigers, but I don't think anyone can.

It's a commercial game now and old ideas of club loyalty (however romantic) do not reflect reality.

[Cardiff Tig]

The 12T and Ford situations aren't comparable really though - 12T wanted game time at 12 and arguably deserved to start ahead of Allen for some patches when Allen wasn't on the best form or coming back from injury (personally I prefer Allen but that's neither here or there). 12T was not developed as a 12 anywhere near as much as Ford was at 10, Allen was the clear favourite and it was much more even between the two players (even though as I said I still think Tigers made the right choice in favouring Allen).

Ford had a considerable amount of game time, at his preferred position, and was actually developed quite well IMO. The fact was that Ford had the best 10 in England ahead of him and was therefore rightly second choice was just tough, but as I said still had considerable game time for his age and such a key position. If Ford had decided to stay on for another season than it is most likely that he would now be taking over Floods place as the starting 10 for next season, and challenging for England even if it is a season later than at Bath.

I'm not sure what the club could have done to keep Ford, without playing a weaker player at 10 for the majority of last season. Whether that should have been done to keep a player that had shown promise but hadn't proven he is up to international rugby yet is clearly up for debate.

[mol2]

Players have to decide what's best for their careers.
Coaches have to decide what's best for the team.

The two are not always the same. Playing Ford ahead of Flood would not have been good for the team because he wasn't (and still isn't the better fly half)IMHO.

The same applied to Twelvetrees. His England opportunities required him to play regularly at centre. Tigers needed him as stand in fly half or utility sub covering wing, fly half and centre. We can debate 'till the cows come home whether he was the better inside centre than Antony Allen, but there's no doubt he was the only player who could cover those slots on the bench and the team was weaker if he didn't. It's ironic he's playing fly half at Glaws now!

It's not always appropriate to blame player or coach, it's just the circumstances.

[4071]

Whilst there are some good points being made all round ref Twelvetrees and J Ford we should all accept they are being made with the benefit of hindsight - but hindsight isn't always as clear as we think.

Hindsight? Really? I must have imagined all those posts I wrote warning that 12T would look to leave if he kept getting ignored by Cockerill and all those posts over the last two years that if the club lost its reputation for being the best place to develop players then the next outstanding young talent in the Croft/Youngs/Tuilagi/Ford bracket would be lost to us.

Three years ago I started banging this drum and the response to me was always that none of the players we lost/released ever went on to a better career afterwards. And in those days the closest I could point to was Greg Tonks, who left Tigers to play about 20 games for Saints. But I warned that it would happen, and that over time we'd start seeing players leaving or being released who went on to better careers at a higher level (rather than a Championship career with Nottingham, Leeds or Bedford).

Since then we've lost an England international (12T), a future international (Ford) and several Premiership regulars (Lewington, Stevens, Forsyth). And Tonks has gone on to win honours with Scotland.

It's not JUST hindsight....

[GETHIN EXILE]

All clubs have some players who develop quicker than expected and are unhappy waiting for game time and move on, also some players take longer to develop and are allowed to leave. 12T and ford were examples of the former and Tonks an example of the later. There are also players who improve vastly when given an opportunity to play at the highest level Slater and Gibson being good examples. There have always been examples of former players coming back to haunt us notably Leon Lloyds interception try quite a few years ago.

[Eon B]

Talking of J Ford, ie Joe, he was considered the better of the brothers but went backwards under alleged poor coaching,


I think the fear of the same thing happening to George prompted the fathers intervention and his departure.

Not making excuses, or justifying the decision, but maybe helping a better understanding.

[4071]

Talking of J Ford, ie Joe, he was considered the better of the brothers but went backwards under alleged poor coaching,.

That's simply not true. George has always been considered the exceptional talent, which is why he was playing for ENG U18 when he was 15 and ENG U20 when he was still 17. Joe didn't even make the age grades. Not only was he behind Burns and Clegg (who were his age) but at U18 level he was also behind George, who is three years younger than him.

[4071]

All clubs have some players who develop quicker than expected and are unhappy waiting for game time and move on, also some players take longer to develop and are allowed to leave. 12T and ford were examples of the former and Tonks an example of the later. There are also players who improve vastly when given an opportunity to play at the highest level Slater and Gibson being good examples. There have always been examples of former players coming back to haunt us notably Leon Lloyds interception try quite a few years ago.

Sorry, but Gibson is a terrible example. He was already playing at a high level at a young age. He was a Premiership regular with Irish as a 20-year old and was capped by the Saxons. He went on to play for England in non-cap matches and toured with the senior England squad as a 21-year old.

[MurphysLaw]

[quote="4071"][quote="GETHIN EXILE"]All clubs have some players who develop quicker than expected and are unhappy waiting for game time and move on, also some players take longer to develop and are allowed to leave. 12T and ford were examples of the former and Tonks an example of the later. There are also players who improve vastly when given an opportunity to play at the highest level Slater and Gibson being good examples. There have always been examples of former players coming back to haunt us notably Leon Lloyds interception try quite a few years ago.[/quote]

Sorry, but Gibson is a terrible example. He was already playing at a high level at a young age. He was a Premiership regular with Irish as a 20-year old and was capped by the Saxons. He went on to play for England in non-cap matches and toured with the senior England squad as a 21-year old.[/quote]

What a surprise - yet another post having a dig!
Same old argument regurgitated for the umpteenth time.
Gibson is a bad example you say, and yet wasn't the so-called 'none developed' Twelvetrees was also capped by the Saxons whilst at Tigers?

Ford too played England U18 and U20 games whilst at Tigers. How is that not bringing on players? Both players have publicly thanked Tigers staff for the help and guidance.

Yes Ford might well be included in the EPS, now that Toby looks to be bound for France. However, who's to say that he wouldn't have been picked if he was still at Tigers?

The facts of the matter are that both players moved under their volition - to clubs where they would be first choice. 36 also wanted more money, and to be closer to his family home. By the way, wasn't he picked up by Tigers after playing no age grade rugby - originally came from Quins catchment area I believe.

Both players are a credit to Tigers development imo, and I prefer to take some pride in the fact that the Club has brought them on.

[sam16111986]

Can we keep this vaguely on topic please. No team can retain every player that has ever been at the club.

[longlivethecrumbie]

Can we keep this vaguely on topic please. No team can retain every player that has ever been at the club.

Indeed. There's a thread from around this time last year that you can resurrect ref Ford's departure.

In terms of current Tigers players, do we know who is actually out of contract at the end of the season? Is it just Flood and Allen? Or are there more?

[Dr H Flashman MBE]

Can we keep this vaguely on topic please. No team can retain every player that has ever been at the club.

Indeed. There's a thread from around this time last year that you can resurrect ref Ford's departure.

In terms of current Tigers players, do we know who is actually out of contract at the end of the season? Is it just Flood and Allen? Or are there more?

Rumour has it Allen is going to resign with us.