Tigers vs Quins

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MrPartridge
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Re: Tigers vs Quins

Post by MrPartridge »

Two rather worrying stats: 2 tries from Tigers in the last three AP games and none from a back. According to BBC website it took Tigers 28 minutes to get into Quins 22 (and the swirling wind was definitely in our favour in the first-half).

I agree with most comments here: we didn't seem 'up for it', backs in particular lacked any invention - did we make any breaks in the entire match, game management was poor.

Even more annoyingly the game against Wasps provided similar conditions to yesterday and Goode showed us last week the value of intelligent kicking to control territory. I thought we had the slight edge on starting line-ups and with home support I expected a win. Two missed opportunities in my opinion as we could have taken 8 points from the last two matches...

We will finish top 4, but we could do with a favour today otherwise Saints and Sarries will start to make Top 2 a distant target for us.
smalldell
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Re: Tigers vs Quins

Post by smalldell »

We all need to remember that our backs barely know each other and they need time to jell. That is why they should play together in the LV cup. I cannot see us doing very well because we are set to lose Aryzea again and I believe Fiji, Tonga and Samoa have fixtures so that could be at least Mafi and Logo gone as well. Argentina and Tonga play on the 22nd. and 23rd of November. So we will not see them until the 29th Nov. We will have our England players back after the 16th, but its going to be a long few weeks. But we should be used to it by now.

I am concerned about Louis Deacon! He just seems out of sorts and when the commentator on BT Sport compared him to Martin Johnson I thought about giving up beer, as I thought it had affected my hearing.

As for the likes of Tait, well as long as he finishes the season as he did last he can rest until February for me....

We are really missing AA because he fills so many defensive holes, but I am impressed with Bowden who is playing really well.
TigerLad
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Re: Tigers vs Quins

Post by TigerLad »

Smurph is on BT sports for the Saints Irish game. They showed the stats and Quins conceded 20 penalties to our 8. Considering they were warned about infringing in the first half surely one of their players should have been yellow carded? I'd also argue that if a team is conceding penalties at almost every scrum surely one of their props should be yellow carded?
yellow_balaclava_hunter
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Re: Tigers vs Quins

Post by yellow_balaclava_hunter »

Skin_and_Muscle wrote:
Tweentown wrote:Whilst on the subject of refereeing decisions, I felt when watching live that the pass that led to the second try was forward. The ref referred it to the TMO. The replays clearly showed that the pass was made a yard outside the 22. The pass was received well inside the 22 - so the ball went forward. Various debate about the passers hands on TV. The TMO awarded the try. Can someone explain?
This was (the only?) one of the 'forward passes' that was correctly decided upon. Momentum dictates the movement of the ball in this situation and focussing on the movement of the hands (ie backwards motion) is the consistently applied method for determining whether a pass is forward or not.
Completely wrong. There is nothing in the laws that states that it is the movement of the hands. The law states that it is the movement of the ball.

The referee on the pitch using the movement of the hands as a quick real time guide is understandable when it is borderline forward or not, but the touch judges should not use this as they have a side on view of the action and the TMO definitely should not use the movement of the hands as the decider when he has several replays available.

The replays clearly show the ball travel at least three metres forward. The passer is outside the 22 when releasing the ball and the receiver is inside the 22 when he catches it.

The TMO has no excuses and should have disallowed the try. The fact that he gave the try reinforces my point that the TMO should be abolished as they are unable to get key decisions right.

Before anyone starts talking about how it is difficult to pass the ball without it going forwards due to momentum, these are professional players who should be capable of passing a ball either straight or backwards regardless of momentum.

However if the referee was going to use the TMO then he should have looked at the offsides at the ruck in the build up to the try plus the blockers who failed to retreat then rejoined the action by the Quins ball carrier running into them whilst they are in an offside position.

I can understand the Salvi yellow card if the Quins centre had not entered from the side prior to Salvi handling the ball. The penalty should have been given to Tigers for Quins infringing first. The referee ignored the Quins offence and penalised Tigers for the very thing that Quins had done not only at that ruck but the three previous ones.

I can understand the criticism of a poor performance but there are a number of caveats created by the abysmal refereeing display.

We conceded the majority of our points during a sin binning that never should have happened.

Would we have been as ineffective in attack had Quins defence not been permanently offside?

We would certainly have defended better and competed better at the rucks if Quins had been penalised for the blockers and the players entering from the side at rucks.

I don't know if anyone has the match stats but I would like to know how many penalties Quins conceded without getting a yellow card.

Harlequins got away with a lot of the infringements that they are well known for doing. The referee has no excuse for letting them get away with it as he should have been looking out for them having done his research before kick off.
jgriffin
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Re: Tigers vs Quins

Post by jgriffin »

That is probably the first post by YBH that I agree with 100% - I actually shouted 'in at the side' prior to Salvi getting pinged. Hopper did it frequently, as did Robson. Robson spent the whole 70 mins he was on infringing! I was also one of a whole chunk of the Crumbie abusing the AR for faiure to flag offsides - some grossly so.
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SMS
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Re: Tigers vs Quins

Post by SMS »

Spot on YBH, I too agree 100%.
SMS
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Re: Tigers vs Quins

Post by SMS »

Bundy
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Re: Tigers vs Quins

Post by Bundy »

I was art a family do and missed the game but followed it on Twitter - it was said that Fraser Balmain came on to replace Matt Smith - was that true?!! I knew we were badly off with injuries but not that bad??!! :smt027
Tigerbeat
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Re: Tigers vs Quins

Post by Tigerbeat »

Bundy wrote:I was art a family do and missed the game but followed it on Twitter - it was said that Fraser Balmain came on to replace Matt Smith - was that true?!! I knew we were badly off with injuries but not that bad??!! :smt027

Tigers had used all their replacements with the exception of Balmain.
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G.K
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Re: Tigers vs Quins

Post by G.K »

We had no other subs left at that point.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.
Bill W (2)
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Re: Tigers vs Quins

Post by Bill W (2) »

Undoubtedly, the pass was forward. Undoubtedly, countless offsides and side entries went umpunished. And undoubtedly at lesast one front row player shoudl have been yellow carded before the penalty try (which should have resulted in a card).

But then the ref is the sole arbiter of fact. So who was engageing him to these misdemeanours? Someone should have been in his ear from early on!!

Even on the offences he did spot (20 plays 8) yellow cards were warranted.

IMHO

But we still played cr*p!!
Still keeping the faith!
G.K
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Re: Tigers vs Quins

Post by G.K »

Having now seen the replay (for flips sake stop faffing about Tigers and get some big screens in!) I agree with YBH - the pass was clearly forwards, either that or the 22 line moved several meters backwards! Slater was also being clearly blocked off the ball from getting across to make the tackle.

The sending off of Salvi was also very questionable as he clearly felt he was entitled to compete for it at that point, penalty maybe but it did not warrant a yellow IMO.

Unfortunately this poor reffing led to 2 game changing events yet again and is ruining the game.

Overall Quins were the better team though, especially with ball in hand.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.
Norfolk & Goode
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Re: Tigers vs Quins

Post by Norfolk & Goode »

yellow_balaclava_hunter wrote:Before anyone starts talking about how it is difficult to pass the ball without it going forwards due to momentum, these are professional players who should be capable of passing a ball either straight or backwards regardless of momentum.
You can throw the ball backwards and it still ends up in front of the point of passing. This video clip will explain. We might not like it, but it is a scientific fact and is not breaking the law. That is also why the TMO tries to look for the direction of the hands and not necessarily the ball.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=box08lq9ylg
ourla
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Re: Tigers vs Quins

Post by ourla »

N&G has it correct, the ball can be passed backwards and still travel forwards. Just because the ball is caught in front of where the player released the pass does not automatically mean it was a forward pass.

With all due respect there is an some crazy stuff being talked about on here. So far I've read the Saints have a more balanced recruitment policy (check out their record against ours over the last decade please), that our coaching staff aren't up to (ditto), that we shouldn't recruit from within (what about the famous Tigers culture that is the foundation of our success), that half the players aren't up to it (some of which saw is to Prem glory last season, some are new into the team) and more. Sure our form is not great on the players on the field should be capable of better. But that is over 3/4 matches. I am not saying there shouldn't be some criticism but I do think much of it is over the top.
jgriffin
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Re: Tigers vs Quins

Post by jgriffin »

I keep posting that this situation is nothing new. We are down to the bones of the side; normally we would expect a team to gel after a few outings, but most of the team haven't had the chance. We have to hope the chaos declines after the internationals - but we may have to accept circumstances are messing our chances up, rather than training.
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