Tigers Restarts

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bc
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Tigers Restarts

Post by bc » Mon Oct 07, 2013 1:57 pm

I have to say that our restarts are really poor with Saturday being another example. We never vary them except when Flood tried something which didn't make the 10m line. We kick long with no height which gives the opposition time to clear their lines under no pressure. Every time Saints restarted Myler put height and distance on the ball and we were put under pressure.
While a restart will, in most cases, give possession to the opposition we don't give ourselves a chance of regaining possession with our restarts - I can only conclude that we give very little thought to them.

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Re: Tigers Restarts

Post by sapajo » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:28 pm

bc wrote:I have to say that our restarts are really poor with Saturday being another example. We never vary them except when Flood tried something which didn't make the 10m line. We kick long with no height which gives the opposition time to clear their lines under no pressure. Every time Saints restarted Myler put height and distance on the ball and we were put under pressure.
While a restart will, in most cases, give possession to the opposition we don't give ourselves a chance of regaining possession with our restarts - I can only conclude that we give very little thought to them.
Excellent posting which I fully concur with :smt023 My view is that as TF hardly ever varies his restart kick he must be acting under pre determined orders. Bottom line is that its totally obvious to most folks that it is a totally ineffective tactic and yet we still persist with season after season, game after game. A delightful gift offering to our opponents.
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drc_007
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Re: Tigers Restarts

Post by drc_007 » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:39 pm

Dealing with the opposition restarts also leaves a lot to be desired.

sapajo
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Re: Tigers Restarts

Post by sapajo » Mon Oct 07, 2013 2:57 pm

drc_007 wrote:Dealing with the opposition restarts also leaves a lot to be desired.
Indeed, perhaps its also because we do not know where our opposition restarts are going to land unlike our opposition.
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TomWeston
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Re: Tigers Restarts

Post by TomWeston » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:36 pm

It doesn't do us a lot of good either when the referee ignores the fact that the opposition wingers (or even the swinging Dickinson at one stage) are invariably in front of their kicker.

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Re: Tigers Restarts

Post by jgriffin » Mon Oct 07, 2013 3:52 pm

This is a very good example of stats leading the brain. As there is a statistical advantage (gleaned from a large database)that overall positional advantage comes from the deep kick, then the error is made to assume that it is true for ALL cases, when in fact it is not for a substantial proportion. The stat is also probably uncorrected for the size of DISADVANTAGE, i.e. the times when it doesn't work are actually catastrophic, and often result in scores against.
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Old Hob
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Re: Tigers Restarts

Post by Old Hob » Mon Oct 07, 2013 7:27 pm

jgriffin wrote:This is a very good example of stats leading the brain. As there is a statistical advantage (gleaned from a large database)that overall positional advantage comes from the deep kick, then the error is made to assume that it is true for ALL cases, when in fact it is not for a substantial proportion. The stat is also probably uncorrected for the size of DISADVANTAGE, i.e. the times when it doesn't work are actually catastrophic, and often result in scores against.
Excellent post. I always thought it was moronic to just kick and not chase - and now I know why.
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mike
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Re: Tigers Restarts

Post by mike » Tue Oct 08, 2013 10:10 am

We have being following this restart plan for years . When Moody was here we always did the short one down the middle for him ( and sometimes Croft) to chase - now its always the long one with no chase - an MOC plan which needs binning ?

jonnyatom5
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Re: Tigers Restarts

Post by jonnyatom5 » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:03 am

Thompstone is our chaser of choice, the kick is nearly always positioned for him to take down the catcher (unless he's impeded). This gives a positional advantage in 'going long'. Crofty is used in much the same way. So I have no problem with the restarts. Saturday was lapse in the chase, but Thompstone got to more, than not.

MrPartridge
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Re: Tigers Restarts

Post by MrPartridge » Tue Oct 08, 2013 11:32 am

Great post this and something I mentioned last season. If it is a 'strategy' to kick re-starts long then I don't like it. The other point is that when the opposing team know what you are going to do every time then it makes it easy for them.

Interesting that at 9-19 down Toby put up a decent re-start that from memory we nearly won.

RWA
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Re: Tigers Restarts

Post by RWA » Sun Oct 13, 2013 8:31 pm

Agreed...good post. Our restarts are pants ! Deep kick to the right-hand side into the opposition 22 + no chase = rubbish.

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Re: Tigers Restarts

Post by fortysix » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:16 pm

Flood's restarts and tactical kicking are generally pretty dire..
as he seems to have been totally binned by England, it seems we have him at present.
But how long will it be before Williams and Mele actually start in front of BY and TF- both of whom are well off the pace technically.
BY has to get much quicker ball instead of running halfway across Welford Road before he lets go, and TF most definitely is out of sorts, probably because of the Stancaster rebuttal.

kend
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Re: Tigers Restarts

Post by kend » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:23 pm

jgriffin wrote:This is a very good example of stats leading the brain. As there is a statistical advantage (gleaned from a large database)that overall positional advantage comes from the deep kick, then the error is made to assume that it is true for ALL cases, when in fact it is not for a substantial proportion. The stat is also probably uncorrected for the size of DISADVANTAGE, i.e. the times when it doesn't work are actually catastrophic, and often result in scores against.
Er....what exactly should lead the brain if not data based on analysis? Even if the tactic sometimes results in an opposition score doesn't mean it is the wrong action if, on the balance of probability, the outcome is advantageous. A restart is a fixed tactical point rather than broken play where you want players to play what is 'in front of them'.

An academy coach explained it to me in this way; if you kick into the opposition 22, their options are limited. If they run you are most likely to contest possession on their 10 metre line with an organised defensive line. If they kick you are most likely to have possession either from a line-out or a catch in field. If you kick to the 10 metre, it is a 50/50 ball. Win it you are on the front foot and potentially scoring, lose it it is possible they will get behind your defence and the contest for possession is on your 10 metre or worse. It's likely you are in a scramble defence and more likely to give away a penalty. It's risk management really.

Personally I like to see a chase, but I can see why teams choose to kick long.

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Re: Tigers Restarts

Post by Noddy555 » Sun Oct 13, 2013 10:37 pm

Every other No 10 at restarts tries to put as much air on the ball as possible in order for their players to compete for the ball when it drops. I can't understand why Toby persists in going long with every kick. OK the occasional one to mix it up because it never pays to be too predictable, but we have some
backs and a few forwards who are excellent in catching high ball, mainly due to
Geordan's tutelage, now he was the past master of this art, Please Toby vary the
game.

parkerd68
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Re: Tigers Restarts

Post by parkerd68 » Mon Oct 14, 2013 10:21 am

I feel the crux of all this is that TF just isn't very good at the art - and I believe it is an art - of drop-kicking. Therefore, if he can just hoof it in the right general direction - which usually means further rather than nearer - then we've managed to restart.

Andy Goode was more skilful at it. He could almost bounce the ball on it's end and then kick once it was several inches of the ground, therefore getting the height that made Moody such an effective chaser.

Please, this is just my opinion, and I get frustrated at the lack of quality chasing, particularly as everyone's wised up to it and have blockers in the line of our runners but, the majority of times we stop them in their 22, they kick it out, and we've got a line out in the region of halfway, and therefore a potentially attacking situation.

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