George Ford

[Bundy]

This thread has inevitably touched on the issue of why did Tigers let such-and-such a great prospect go? GF, 12trees, etc. Tigers are always asked to "do everything they can" to keep such-and-such. But the real problem is that having a salary cap (as low as it is!) and the implicit desire that posters on here have for Tigers to have two top-notch, international standard players for each and every position.

In many ways Tigers do achieve this difficult balance, in the main by skillful recruitment and development of players either from the Academy (e.g. Youngs brothers) or other clubs (e.g. Morris & Parling). The implicit "bargain" is that the players who are NOT the first choice will earn less than the first choice players, but they will be involved in many games at the top level and win trophies/ medals.

Sanity and succinctness in the same posting - blimey!!

Tigers cannot (afford to) operate like the French clubs and pay ridiculous wages for top-level players who then have limited play through rotation. So they operate as they do.

The inevitable problem for any up-and-coming player who wants high wages and a first team place is that they either have to patiently wait their turn or move elsewhere.

It really is that simple. So it was inevitable that GF and 12trees moved on. C'est la vie.

[Alatoruk]

having seen his woeful defense last week I am not worried we let him go.

[Mersey Tiger]

Thanks for the compliment Bundy

What I don't understand is how on earth you managed to get your comment and " " smily in the quote of my posting!

Maybe it's my age, coming from an era when computers were as big as the CAT stand and attractive personnel would waltz in and out of the computer room carrying paper tape, stacks of program cards and printouts. To deal with the subtleties of computer software these days I need to ask my youngest son to pop around!

[4071]

Perhaps a little too strong but as BJ said in an earlier post, if someone is so anti Cockers and Tigers why don't they go and support the other clubs. There are some on here who think the club can do no right and are continually having a go.

Conflating those two is somewhat disingenuous.

It's the equivalent of claiming that anyone who criticises the current Government is anti-British and should leave the country.


Also, your line that "There are some on here who think the club can do no right" is simply nonsense. There are some on here who believe that the club/management is capable of mistakes, and criticise what they see as those mistakes... and there are some who apparently believe that nothing the club/management does can be criticised, and any criticism of any aspect of the club/management is anti-Tigers and the critic should support some other club.

Not naming any names...

[4071]

[quote=

I think a lot of the reason for the impatience of Ford is the media. He's been hyped up and is it any wonder he believes it? Also, he'll have been watching Farrell, an age-group teammate he kept out of the 10 jersey, play for England and become the luckiest Lion ever. He's probably been panicked by the media love-in with Farrell.

.

That is a complete myth Tiger Alex. The under 20 is a development squad, nothing more. Good players pass through, usually in one season, as part of their development. At the time Farrell had played a season of premiership and HC rugby, won the premiership final vs Tigers, and was on the verge of becoming a full international. The idea that he would play 10, when he could easily play 12 or 13 at that level, for the under 20s and have Ford sat on the bench and block his development is ridiculous. Ford himself missed the 2012 and 2013 tournaments, despite being eligible, because it was not deemed worthwhile for his development.[/quote]

So, uh... what was the myth?

It is a fact that Ford kept Farrell out of the 10 jersey at U20 level, as he had previously done at U18 level. They had come through the age grades together since U16 (with Ford playing ahead of his grade each time) and Ford was the established FH with Farrell at inside centre.

This continued at U20 level, and Ford won the IRB Junior World Player of the Year award in that season - the youngest ever recipient.


So what's this myth that you are talking about?

[tigerburnie]

Perhaps a little too strong but as BJ said in an earlier post, if someone is so anti Cockers and Tigers why don't they go and support the other clubs. There are some on here who think the club can do no right and are continually having a go.

Conflating those two is somewhat disingenuous.

It's the equivalent of claiming that anyone who criticises the current Government is anti-British and should leave the country.


Also, your line that "There are some on here who think the club can do no right" is simply nonsense. There are some on here who believe that the club/management is capable of mistakes, and criticise what they see as those mistakes... and there are some who apparently believe that nothing the club/management does can be criticised, and any criticism of any aspect of the club/management is anti-Tigers and the critic should support some other club.

Not naming any names...

There are also some who don't take the same critism as well as they dish it out............... I like to think I have the skin of a Rhino and take as good as I give, granted it unusual for me to ever say so..............sor...........sor , nope it just won't come out.

[4071]

Interesting article by Austin on George. This about hits it on the head for me. Good prospect but still question marks.

http://sport.bt.com/rugbyunionhub/rugby ... 3838216920

I am not writing off Ford, far from it, but I just think that at the minute his cause is being a championed a little too early.

- Austin Healey, Oct 2013

It amazes me you have the four best English fly-halves playing for just two clubs... players of the calibre of Charlie Hodgson, Owen Farrell, George Ford and Toby Flood all need to be playing every week.

- Austin Healey, Jan 2013

[4071]

The inevitable problem for any up-and-coming player who wants high wages and a first team place is that they either have to patiently wait their turn or move elsewhere.

It really is that simple.

Nothing is ever that simple. It is actually possible to win trophies AND develop and retain players.

Saracens and Quins are a couple of good examples (even if there may be some doubts about the legitimacy of Saracens' methods). Just because we won the Premiership last season it does not negate what those two clubs did in previous seasons whilst ALSO bringing increasing numbers of players into their first team squads, developing them with rotation and regular game time, and retaining them after they broke through.

It's not necessarily a choice between winning and developing. It's not EASY to do both, but being a DoR of a top rugby club is not supposed to be easy. Otherwise we could all do it.

Not one of Cockerill's critics is more qualifed than he is to be DoR of Tigers. Not one of his critics would have anything like his record if they were thrust into the position. He is a very good DoR.

But that does not mean he is flawless. We seek to be the very best, and when we seem to be falling short in a fairly significant area - the development and retention of top young talent - then it's something worth addressing.

I've been banging this drum for a few seasons, though, to pretty much the same reception. I was complaining when we were losing the likes of Gillanders, Armes, Tonks and Green as I felt they could become good squad players at the top level. I was told that they would never be good enough for Tigers and that at least we were retaining the players that would go on to be internationals (the likes of Youngs and Tuilagi).

I suggested that it wouldn't be long before the potentially outstanding players started leaving, too.

But of course, the same people who ignored me two years ago are pointing out the Lions tourist Twelvetrees and teenage Saxon Ford are no great loss either....

[Smurphswillgetya]

Nothing is ever that simple. It is actually possible to win trophies AND develop and retain players.

Saracens and Quins are a couple of good examples (even if there may be some doubts about the legitimacy of Saracens' methods). Just because we won the Premiership last season it does not negate what those two clubs did in previous seasons whilst ALSO bringing increasing numbers of players into their first team squads, developing them with rotation and regular game time, and retaining them after they broke through.

It's not necessarily a choice between winning and developing. It's not EASY to do both, but being a DoR of a top rugby club is not supposed to be easy. Otherwise we could all do it.


I've been banging this drum for a few seasons, though, to pretty much the same reception. I was complaining when we were losing the likes of Gillanders, Armes, Tonks and Green as I felt they could become good squad players at the top level. I was told that they would never be good enough for Tigers and that at least we were retaining the players that would go on to be internationals (the likes of Youngs and Tuilagi).

In order to hear the sound of your own drum you give credit to Sarries and Quins but seem to ignore the fact that the Tigers have been in transition over the last few seasons and whilst briniging young players through we have managed to sustain a high level of performance. Just like us Sarries have brought players in from outside the club - Hodgson, Smit, Burger, Joubert, Ashton, Strettle, Vunipola, Johnston, Brits to name a few. How many academy players will that have stopped from developing or who have left Sarries?

[Mr Bean]

Nothing is ever that simple. It is actually possible to win trophies AND develop and retain players.

Saracens and Quins are a couple of good examples (even if there may be some doubts about the legitimacy of Saracens' methods). Just because we won the Premiership last season it does not negate what those two clubs did in previous seasons whilst ALSO bringing increasing numbers of players into their first team squads, developing them with rotation and regular game time, and retaining them after they broke through.

It's not necessarily a choice between winning and developing. It's not EASY to do both, but being a DoR of a top rugby club is not supposed to be easy. Otherwise we could all do it.


I've been banging this drum for a few seasons, though, to pretty much the same reception. I was complaining when we were losing the likes of Gillanders, Armes, Tonks and Green as I felt they could become good squad players at the top level. I was told that they would never be good enough for Tigers and that at least we were retaining the players that would go on to be internationals (the likes of Youngs and Tuilagi).

In order to hear the sound of your own drum you give credit to Sarries and Quins but seem to ignore the fact that the Tigers have been in transition over the last few seasons and whilst briniging young players through we have managed to sustain a high level of performance. Just like us Sarries have brought players in from outside the club - Hodgson, Smit, Burger, Joubert, Ashton, Strettle, Vunipola, Johnston, Brits to name a few. How many academy players will that have stopped from developing or who have left Sarries?

I think sarries have had a good mix in the last few years and it is starting to pay off now they have the likes of Jamie George, George Kruis, Jackson Wray, Will Fraser, Owen Farrell, James Short and Ben Ransom all playing premiership rugby after having come through the academy and they have several young players who look as though they can carry on this trend.

[TigerLad]

Nothing is ever that simple. It is actually possible to win trophies AND develop and retain players.

Saracens and Quins are a couple of good examples (even if there may be some doubts about the legitimacy of Saracens' methods). Just because we won the Premiership last season it does not negate what those two clubs did in previous seasons whilst ALSO bringing increasing numbers of players into their first team squads, developing them with rotation and regular game time, and retaining them after they broke through.

It's not necessarily a choice between winning and developing. It's not EASY to do both, but being a DoR of a top rugby club is not supposed to be easy. Otherwise we could all do it.


I've been banging this drum for a few seasons, though, to pretty much the same reception. I was complaining when we were losing the likes of Gillanders, Armes, Tonks and Green as I felt they could become good squad players at the top level. I was told that they would never be good enough for Tigers and that at least we were retaining the players that would go on to be internationals (the likes of Youngs and Tuilagi).

In order to hear the sound of your own drum you give credit to Sarries and Quins but seem to ignore the fact that the Tigers have been in transition over the last few seasons and whilst briniging young players through we have managed to sustain a high level of performance. Just like us Sarries have brought players in from outside the club - Hodgson, Smit, Burger, Joubert, Ashton, Strettle, Vunipola, Johnston, Brits to name a few. How many academy players will that have stopped from developing or who have left Sarries?

I think sarries have had a good mix in the last few years and it is starting to pay off now they have the likes of Jamie George, George Kruis, Jackson Wray, Will Fraser, Owen Farrell, James Short and Ben Ransom all playing premiership rugby after having come through the academy and they have several young players who look as though they can carry on this trend.

I would argue that Short shouldn't be part of that list as he is currently playing for Bedford. We have the balance right in my opinion, we may have lost 36 and Ford but we have also kept Manu, Cole, the Youngs brothers and Parling to name a few. If we had payed what 36 and Ford had wanted would we have been able to keep the players above? I doubt it. You also have to take into consideration that they played in positions where we already had some of our best players. In a salary cap league you can't keep everyone and they just happened to be the players we lost.

[Mr Bean]

[quote="SmurphswiBedford


I've been banging this drum for a few seasons, though, to pretty much the same reception. I was complaining when we were losing the likes of Gillanders, Armes, Tonks and Green as I felt they could become good squad players at the top level. I was told that they would never be good enough for Tigers and that at least we were retaining the players that would go on to be internationals (the likes of Youngs and Tuilagi).

In order to hear the sound of your own drum you give credit to Sarries and Quins but seem to ignore the fact that the Tigers have been in transition over the last few seasons and whilst briniging young players through we have managed to sustain a high level of performance. Just like us Sarries have brought players in from outside the club - Hodgson, Smit, Burger, Joubert, Ashton, Strettle, Vunipola, Johnston, Brits to name a few. How many academy players will that have stopped from developing or who have left Sarries?

I think sarries have had a good mix in the last few years and it is starting to pay off now they have the likes of Jamie George, George Kruis, Jackson Wray, Will Fraser, Owen Farrell, James Short and Ben Ransom all playing premiership rugby after having come through the academy and they have several young players who look as though they can carry on this trend.[/quote]

I would argue that Short shouldn't be part of that list as he is currently playing for Bedford. We have the balance right in my opinion, we may have lost 36 and Ford but we have also kept Manu, Cole, the Youngs brothers and Parling to name a few. If we had payed what 36 and Ford had wanted would we have been able to keep the players above? I doubt it. You also have to take into consideration that they played in positions where we already had some of our best players. In a salary cap league you can't keep everyone and they just happened to be the players we lost.[/quote]

Short was injury cover at the end of last season at Bedford he is back at sarries now. Sarries have been able to do this and be able to keep Ashton, Strettle, Hodgson, Brits all of whom I can imagine are on fairly nice wage packages. And the positions they play in George and brits are both hookers, kruis is with borthwick and botha who are both internationals, wray is contending with fraser, vunipola, burger and Joubert and ransom with Goode.
(Sorry about any mistakes my phone is being an a**e and jumping about where I am typing)

[jgriffin]

Anyone querying Tigers decision re Ford needed to watch the Sale-Bath game tonight where Ford was shown to be second-rate by the has-been Cipriani - who was deservedly MOTM.

[Johnnyg]

50% success off the tee with most kicks being easy. Missed tackles and forward passes. Kicked well out of hand, but we know he can do that. World class? I don't think so. Better than Flood? Forget it.

[Darc Tiger]

Back down to Earth for him and Bath tonight. We know what he can do when he is given an armchair ride, but when the going gets tough... Still not ready. Don't think Sale will trouble relegation this year.