Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

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tigerburnie
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by tigerburnie »

The trouble with no salary cap is what has happened to footie, massive debt ridden clubs with bought in players and no soul or structure. Clubs should be allowed to spend what they can earn, not what some sugar daddy puts in till they get bored or broke. We don't need massive change in a knee jerk fashion, we need evolution, not revolution. The game has grown, but is in danger a faltering and stalling , in the northern hemisphere. I don't think the French model is working very well in it's current form, former huge clubs shadows of themselves and smaller sides, bought cheaply by the wealthy as toys are currently dominating. It doesn't last, look at John Halls Newcastle-Gosforth, our model is working domestically, we just need a fair and even European competition. We don't need weaker pools and "groups of death", we need all the sides in, on merit, no easy games, an elite competition for the clubs/regions involved. The idea of a European cup is great, but this "selection" of sides rather qualification makes a mockery of the sport, as it currently stands.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
tig1
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by tig1 »

drc_007 wrote:
tig1 wrote: The French don't have a salary cap and we had an all French final this year, which really illustrates the point.
The French do have a salary cap.
Sorry my mistake. But they have a cap which is meaningless in that at 8 million plus, its higher than any other nation can potentially afford and close on double the English cap.
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by tig1 »

northerntiger wrote:True, but super rugby is played in a league format over a season, a minimum I think of 16 games. HC is a cup competition played within the regular season by the same sides. you can't really compare the two
Agreed Northern, but what the top English teams like Tigers are wanting to do is play something like 33 elite club games a year. 24 in the AP and 9 in the HC. And they want to do it on a restrictive budget.
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by drc_007 »

tig1 wrote:
drc_007 wrote:
tig1 wrote: The French don't have a salary cap and we had an all French final this year, which really illustrates the point.
The French do have a salary cap.
Sorry my mistake. But they have a cap which is meaningless in that at 8 million plus, its higher than any other nation can potentially afford and close on double the English cap.
I actually think the crucial part might be

"youth players will no longer be included in the salary cap unless they earn in excess of €50,000 (£43,000) a year in a move designed to encourage the development of fresh talent."

I'd like to see a similar move in England.
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by drc_007 »

I guess this underlines the concerns of many

http://www.theguardian.com/football/201 ... ier-league

The opening weekend of Premier League fixtures marked an all-time low in terms of the number of Englishmen beginning games at the start of a season. A Guardian study shows two-thirds of those on view in the first round of fixtures were foreign nationals, highlighting the falling number of homegrown players in the top flight.
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by Smudge »

I never thought I would say this but you are bang on Burnie.
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by Cardiff Tig »

tigerburnie wrote: we just need a fair and even European competition. We don't need weaker pools and "groups of death", we need all the sides in, on merit, no easy games, an elite competition for the clubs/regions involved. The idea of a European cup is great, but this "selection" of sides rather qualification makes a mockery of the sport, as it currently stands.
The problem is that you either have a European competition that involves every country or one elite competition which would potentially see 2 countries missing out.
mol2
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by mol2 »

I think that those who believe it isn't about money are kidding themselves.

It's all about the money - the English and French sides know they are the draw for TV and sponsorship money and think they should get a far bigger cut of the money than they do.

The English & French sides have to battle to qualify, many missing out on the income that qualification earns them yet see a lot of money going to some of the sides who effectively don't have to qualify. I don't have a problem with this aspect but it does render the Rabo almost meaningless.

It's the same argument as the side England seeking to sort out their own TV rights to the 6N (in the way France already do) - the others know they won't get anything like the TV money they get at present (if England do the same as France) and will do almost anything to prevent this from happening.
The H Cup is the same issue on a club scale.

After all - how much TV money would be drawn by say Treviso v Ulster, or Glasgow v Scarlets? Nothing like Tigers v Perpignan I'd suggest.
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by Cardiff Tig »

mol2 wrote:I think that those who believe it isn't about money are kidding themselves.
Totally agree!
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by yellow_balaclava_hunter »

Cardiff Tig wrote:
tigerburnie wrote: we just need a fair and even European competition. We don't need weaker pools and "groups of death", we need all the sides in, on merit, no easy games, an elite competition for the clubs/regions involved. The idea of a European cup is great, but this "selection" of sides rather qualification makes a mockery of the sport, as it currently stands.
The problem is that you either have a European competition that involves every country or one elite competition which would potentially see 2 countries missing out.
Please read all of the posts before commenting as this issue has already been addressed earlier on.
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by TigerAlex »

mol2 wrote: The English & French sides have to battle to qualify, many missing out on the income that qualification earns them yet see a lot of money going to some of the sides who effectively don't have to qualify. I don't have a problem with this aspect but it does render the Rabo almost meaningless.
I agree, it's about money. For both sides. You bring two separate issues together here, and the combination of the two is probably why things have now come to a head. The Rabo league isn't very profitable and I think the Rabo clubs (or unions) get a large portion of their income from the Heineken Cup. The Rabo teams have also designed their domestic league around the Heineken Cup to maximise their chances of success and line their own pockets. The problem is where a large proportion of that money comes from- ie the French and English viewing figures. This means that the French and English are effectively paying the Irish, Welsh, Scottish and, to some extent, the Italians to do them over in the Heineken Cup. The Rabo teams can afford to neglect their domestic league because their European competition money is more important at the moment and because qualification for the Heineken Cup is near enough automatic. The English and French can't neglect their domestic leagues because qualification is nowhere near automatic and they still need the income provided by the Heineken Cup, the result being that their chances of progressing deep into the competition is reduced in comparison to the chances of the Rabo teams.

I know it's popular to view the financial motive as horrible and nasty and to make the English and French clubs into the bad guys. However, really what's wrong with it? Is it really fair that the English and French clubs are basically subsidising the Rabo teams to neglect their own leagues? I'm not going to pretend that the English and French are doing this for the good of the Rabo teams, but if they have to start depending on having a regular income from their domestic competitions, perhaps that will motivate them to improve their domestic league and hopefully attract more supporters on a regular basis.
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by snoopster »

yellow_balaclava_hunter wrote:The difficulty is that the Irish, Welsh and Scots have engineered their structure totally around the Heineken Cup. The Rabo League matches are just practice games to them.
I don't think this is right at all.
They have designed their domestic structure around the international teams - oddly in Ireland it has brought success for the regional sides while the international side under-performs by comparison but the intent is clear.
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by Cardiff Tig »

yellow_balaclava_hunter wrote:
Cardiff Tig wrote:
tigerburnie wrote: we just need a fair and even European competition. We don't need weaker pools and "groups of death", we need all the sides in, on merit, no easy games, an elite competition for the clubs/regions involved. The idea of a European cup is great, but this "selection" of sides rather qualification makes a mockery of the sport, as it currently stands.
The problem is that you either have a European competition that involves every country or one elite competition which would potentially see 2 countries missing out.
Please read all of the posts before commenting as this issue has already been addressed earlier on.
Having read all the posts again to see if I missed something I can't see where it is addressed! If there is to be a European competition then some teams will have to have automatic qualification. Or else its not going to be a European competition. I suspect a few people on here would like to have another away trip to Treviso which would certainly never happen again with an elite competition!
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by yellow_balaclava_hunter »

"There are plenty of formats that different people have suggested on here that would achieve the desired meritocracy."
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by yellow_balaclava_hunter »

snoopster wrote:
yellow_balaclava_hunter wrote:The difficulty is that the Irish, Welsh and Scots have engineered their structure totally around the Heineken Cup. The Rabo League matches are just practice games to them.
I don't think this is right at all.
They have designed their domestic structure around the international teams - oddly in Ireland it has brought success for the regional sides while the international side under-performs by comparison but the intent is clear.
I would agree that some of it is to help the national teams but the way that the regions are funded is largely from a combination of International and Heineken revenue so the league structure is designed for those sides to compete in the Heineken. The clubs were sold the idea of regions on the basis that they would have a chance at Heineken Cup wins. The Rabo teams and the unions that represent them certainly won't want less teams in their main competition.

It is in the Rabo teams financial and competitive interests to be in the Heineken, without that tournament they are effectively playing in a plate competition. Whereas the English and French have very exciting and competitive leagues of their own so wouldn't miss the Heineken as much.
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