Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

[ozwaldcopperpot]

apart the Irish (and a blip from Edinburgh) when was the last time a Rabo team made it past the group stage ?!

[biffer]

apart the Irish (and a blip from Edinburgh) when was the last time a Rabo team made it past the group stage ?!

Cardiff 2011-12
Ospreys 2009-10
Cardiff and Ospreys 2008-09
Cardiff and Ospreys 2007-08
Scarlets 2006-07

If you take out three of the strongest AP teams plus another team who made a run at the HC, say Leicester, Quins, Northampton and Bath, what's the English equivalent?

[jgriffin]

As usual everyone is comparing playing standard for highly rested players against not-so-rested players in a properly competitive league where good attendances are very helpful. Just the usual - it will never compute. BTW my Welsh friends think they have been shafted by the Irish over the Rabo/HC (five Cardiff and two Ospreys).

[tig1]

Agreed JG. It doesnt compute. And never will, because the different Unions and clubs / provinces within them have different ways they wish to run their domestic and european rugby. The only aim they all have in common is they all want maximise their share of the money.

So the game is truely doomed to go around in ever decreasing circles on this one

[cidermark]

maximise their share of the money

Kind of agree with you tig1. However, to me, 'maximising' means using your income to make the most of it. I'm pretty sure that what they really want is to grab as much money from the pot as they can with the least amount of effort.

[DickyP]

....Is it seriously in the interests of the game to want the Rabo teams to be brought down to the same physical condition as Northampton were that day ? Surely the question has to be how an English club can turn up in that physical condition in the most important game of the season ?

Those asking for the Rabo to become more competitive have no interest in the Rabo per se. They do so in the only in the interest of the Celtic teams being unable to play fresh and fit players in the HC.
In the interests of Rugby, my opinion is that is the wrong way around. And we should be asking how the English and French structure is changed to ensure players are fresh for the HC.

So you are suggesting that instead of making the Rabo more competitive and therefore more interesting (and thereby probably encouraging a few Scots and welsh to actually turn up and watch) we should destroy a vibrant, competitive league to concentrate on just 6 games a year!

[Cardiff Tig]

So you are suggesting that instead of making the Rabo more competitive and therefore more interesting (and thereby probably encouraging a few Scots and welsh to actually turn up and watch) we should destroy a vibrant, competitive league to concentrate on just 6 games a year!

But that's the same as destroying a perfectly good cup competition that the fans clearly love (going by attendances!) just to give a couple of teams from one country more chance of winning occasionally.

[TigerAlex]

But that's the same as destroying a perfectly good cup competition that the fans clearly love (going by attendances!) just to give a couple of teams from one country more chance of winning occasionally.

1. It's not a perfectly good cup competition because it is fundamentally unfair in its existing format and organisation.

2. Many people have made suggestions over and over and over again of how to keep as many nations in the Heineken Cup as there are currently. For example, with the proposed 8 8 8 qualification, in the Pro12, they could arrange it so that the highest finishing team from each nation qualifies and then the remaining 4 places are given to the highest finishing teams overall. Or, another suggestion was to scrap the runner up spots in the knockouts and add more pools. So you'd have 8 pools of 4, to give 32 teams. This would allow 10 teams from each league plus an extra team from the winning nation or the winner of the second tier competition. Both of these formats would keep the Scot and Italian teams in the top competition.

[h's dad]

So you are suggesting that instead of making the Rabo more competitive and therefore more interesting (and thereby probably encouraging a few Scots and welsh to actually turn up and watch) we should destroy a vibrant, competitive league to concentrate on just 6 games a year!

But that's the same as destroying a perfectly good cup competition that the fans clearly love (going by attendances!) just to give a couple of teams from one country more chance of winning occasionally.

They are not destroying it. They are simply electing not to partake. English sides did not compete in the original HC anyway.

[tig1]

....Is it seriously in the interests of the game to want the Rabo teams to be brought down to the same physical condition as Northampton were that day ? Surely the question has to be how an English club can turn up in that physical condition in the most important game of the season ?

Those asking for the Rabo to become more competitive have no interest in the Rabo per se. They do so in the only in the interest of the Celtic teams being unable to play fresh and fit players in the HC.
In the interests of Rugby, my opinion is that is the wrong way around. And we should be asking how the English and French structure is changed to ensure players are fresh for the HC.

So you are suggesting that instead of making the Rabo more competitive and therefore more interesting (and thereby probably encouraging a few Scots and welsh to actually turn up and watch) we should destroy a vibrant, competitive league to concentrate on just 6 games a year!

No, i wasnt suggesting that should be the way forward Dicky. I was just describing the situation as it is. In my mind there is absolutely no obvious solution because there are simply to many games in the calander.

I was just stating that by making the Rabo competetive for HC qualification you (almost certainly) reduce the standard of the Celtic teams contribution in the HC. Which of course is what the English and French want.

[cidermark]

tig1 - Now, because others have chosen a different route that has made them more competitive we want to complain. We want the HC to be played closer to the standards that our salary capped system has created.

This is truly reflected in the massive support that Cardiff Blues got for their three home HC matches! What was the average - erm five and a bit thousand! Compared to the handicapped Tigers who could only muster a meagre twenty-odd thousand for theirs!

Could it be that some of the Rabo clubs don't really need to compete in either competition just to get a lump of money because of other teams!

[h's dad]

....Is it seriously in the interests of the game to want the Rabo teams to be brought down to the same physical condition as Northampton were that day ? Surely the question has to be how an English club can turn up in that physical condition in the most important game of the season ?

Those asking for the Rabo to become more competitive have no interest in the Rabo per se. They do so in the only in the interest of the Celtic teams being unable to play fresh and fit players in the HC.
In the interests of Rugby, my opinion is that is the wrong way around. And we should be asking how the English and French structure is changed to ensure players are fresh for the HC.

So you are suggesting that instead of making the Rabo more competitive and therefore more interesting (and thereby probably encouraging a few Scots and welsh to actually turn up and watch) we should destroy a vibrant, competitive league to concentrate on just 6 games a year!

No, i wasnt suggesting that should be the way forward Dicky. I was just describing the situation as it is. In my mind there is absolutely no obvious solution because there are simply to many games in the calander.

I was just stating that by making the Rabo competetive for HC qualification you (almost certainly) reduce the standard of the Celtic teams contribution in the HC. Which of course is what the English and French want.

The HC is the premier European club rugby competition. Frankly clubs in non-competitive leagues should not be eligible to qualify for it, much less receive automatic qualification.

[cidermark]

The HC is the premier European club rugby competition. Frankly clubs in non-competitive leagues should not be eligible to qualify for it, much less receive automatic qualification.

+1

[Cardiff Tig]

But that's the same as destroying a perfectly good cup competition that the fans clearly love (going by attendances!) just to give a couple of teams from one country more chance of winning occasionally.

1. It's not a perfectly good cup competition because it is fundamentally unfair in its existing format and organisation.

Its only fundamentally unfair in regards to finances - and I have no problem with the English and French clubs refusing to continue the current agreement, especially as the English clubs have shown they can get a much better commercial deal. However, the fact that some clubs choose to rest players before key games isn't anything to do with Tigers. Maybe Tigers should do that more often and target sixth place in the league rather than a top two spot. Its the salary cap that forces English clubs to have to compete so hard in the premiership all season as it evens out the teams leaving possibly only 1 or 2 games a season where some players can be rested.

As a fan the extra money will not make one difference to my enjoyment as a Tigers supporter - we won't be able to keep up with the French spending, there will always be a salary cap by the looks of things and I get to see plenty of good players whatever team is picked for Tigers already. I know that there have been lots of suggestions of formats, I have no problem with a change in format as long as Tigers are guaranteed to play 6 games a season against opposition from the as many different countries as possible! I would be happy with the 32 team format that has been suggested, but that would definitely not stop the Irish teams from resting players before cup games!!

[h's dad]

Its the salary cap that forces English clubs to have to compete so hard in the premiership all season as it evens out the teams leaving possibly only 1 or 2 games a season where some players can be rested.

As a fan the extra money will not make one difference to my enjoyment as a Tigers supporter - we won't be able to keep up with the French spending, there will always be a salary cap by the looks of things and I get to see plenty of good players whatever team is picked for Tigers already. [/quote]

There is talk, I believe from Mark McCafferty of the additional TV money from BT being used to fund increases in club salary caps, possibly next season. It won't bring European equality but it would help.