Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

[SouthMunster]

If ERC survive totally intact it will be a triumph of the corrupt flaneurs, fairly typical of these days.

Hi JG, I don't see it the same way you do.
For me the Unions are the good guys in this situation and viewed from my angle I'd greatly fear a victory for RCC.
If Wray, Craig and Goze got their way then I think that professional club rugby in the NH would eventually be dominated by a few rich superclubs that would win out every year much as is the case in soccer today.
This would not only have a devastating impact on the smaller nations but would make both the English and French leagues far less competitive.
In my opinion the concessions from the Unions address the concerns the French and English had on their perceived lack of fairness in the current situation.
The fact that this is not enough for the PRL/LNR makes me very suspicious of what their long-term ambitions are.
At least there is some semblance of democracy with the Unions in charge.

[MurphysLaw]

[quote="SouthMunster"][quote="jgriffin"]If ERC survive totally intact it will be a triumph of the corrupt flaneurs, fairly typical of these days.[/quote]

Hi JG, I don't see it the same way you do.
For me the Unions are the good guys in this situation and viewed from my angle I'd greatly fear a victory for RCC.
If Wray, Craig and Goze got their way then I think that professional club rugby in the NH would eventually be dominated by a few rich superclubs that would win out every year much as is the case in soccer today.
This would not only have a devastating impact on the smaller nations but would make both the English and French leagues far less competitive.
In my opinion the concessions from the Unions address the concerns the French and English had on their perceived lack of fairness in the current situation.
The fact that this is not enough for the PRL/LNR makes me very suspicious of what their long-term ambitions are.
At least there is some semblance of democracy with the Unions in charge.[/quote]

You have stumbled on to the problem from the English and French Clubs viewpoint - lack of democracy.
At the nub of the problem are the structural differences between how the game is organised across the competing teams. In France and England the Clubs are largely self-supporting and have a different relationship with their Unions. In what they see as a club competition, they want to have more say on how it is run.
I don't follow as to how giving more representation in this competition would make the leagues any less competitive.Both the Top 14 and the Aviva have become increasingly competitive under the stewardship of the clubs' bodies.

[Cagey Tiger]

In amongst various bits and bobs in the following article is the view from Simon Cohen:

http://www.leicestermercury.co.uk/Insid ... story.html


And, as Leicester Tigers chief executive Simon Cohen explained, whatever happens during the manoeuvring and politicking over the next few months, there is no turning back.

"We have given notice to exit the ERC-run competition and our BT Sport contract means we cannot go back into an ERC-run competition," he said.

"Even if we could, we would have little interest in putting ourselves back in a position which caused so much resentment.

"We will play against the French in the Champions Cup and we hope the unions will permit the other European clubs to also play in that competition."

This seems fairly unequivocal. So it would seem that nobody (not even the English) wants the English clubs to play in the HEC or any ERC equivalent.

Unlike a number of other posters, I will not go into any speculation about what will eventually happen, because that is all it would be, speculation (even if it is fairly well informed speculation). What I will say, and I think that just about everyone on this thread will agree, is that if we end up without a competition involving all 6 current nations (plus others?) it will be a really sad state of affairs.

[jgriffin]

But one brought about by a flat refusal by ERC to level the playing field.

[SouthMunster]

In France and England the Clubs are largely self-supporting and have a different relationship with their Unions. In what they see as a club competition, they want to have more say on how it is run.

Clubs in England and France seem to be relying on businessmen like Mr Wray and Mr Craig to support them.
And certainly Mr Wray has spoken of how he will run his business the way he sees fit, so Saracens seems to have a self-appointed club electorate of 1.
The situation appears to be similar in Bath, Racing Metro and Toulon and possibly more clubs.

I don't follow as to how giving more representation in this competition would make the leagues any less competitive.Both the Top 14 and the Aviva have become increasingly competitive under the stewardship of the clubs' bodies.

English soccer has been drowning in ever money since the early 90s and yet the only clubs that have been able to break the Man U/Arsenal stranglehold have been clubs that have been acquired by rich owners (Blackburn, Chelsea, Man City).
It's done nothing to promote a more competitive league.
Once upon a time a club like Burnley could win the league every now and again.
And could there ever be another success story like Ipswich or Nottingham Forest?
It's also done nothing for the financial health of clubs lower down the pyramid let alone the amateur game.

Similarly if rugby is run by rich men then however much money BT/Sky put into the game I'd imagine most of it will either be paid to the top players or worse go towards paying off debt piled onto the clubs by their owners.

I would prefer to see professional club rugby run on a system where a central body acts to keep the playing field level for all clubs while controlling the remuneration of players.

With the Unions in charge there is a chance of fair administration at a national level and a better chance of fairness in international competitions also. There view of rugby is, by definition, more holistic.

Otherwise, with the likes of Wray, Craig etc in charge, I think that we'll end up with bidding wars for players by success hungry club owners and debt funded club acquisitions by individuals who then burden the clubs with the cost of repayment.

[TomWeston]

Similarly if rugby is run by rich men then however much money BT/Sky put into the game I'd imagine most of it will either be paid to the top players or worse go towards paying off debt piled onto the clubs by their owners.

Isn't that the case with the high French salary cap nowadays?

I would prefer to see professional club rugby run on a system where a central body acts to keep the playing field level for all clubs while controlling the remuneration of players.

With the Unions in charge there is a chance of fair administration at a national level and a better chance of fairness in international competitions also. There view of rugby is, by definition, more holistic.

What is fair about a competition where the French clubs can pay up for the best players and the Rabo clubs can rest players because their qualification has been all but guaranteed?

[Farmboy]

Southmunster,so an organisation that levels payments & have a salary cap. Wonder if such already exist

[GT1]

Just had my season ticket renewal details(I pay monthly by dd) £22 pm from £21 + 5%!! & a line on it saying - Your season ticket includes 3 European games & as soon as we know details of the new European comp for season 2014/15 we will get in contact with you - will that be for a refund if no HC??

[MurphysLaw]

".....Otherwise, with the likes of Wray, Craig etc in charge, I think that we'll end up with bidding wars for players by success hungry club owners and debt funded club acquisitions by individuals who then burden the clubs with the cost of repayment."

SouthMunster, what evidence, from the way the Top 14 and Aviva have been running, have you got to support this view?
Under their clubs' organisational bodies both leagues have become increasingly competitive entities.

[SouthMunster]

What is fair about a competition where the French clubs can pay up for the best players

French clubs want that. I don't know if the FFR do though. The FFR are more interested in promoting French rugby as a whole and especially in the success of the national side. The same goes for the other Unions.

..the Rabo clubs can rest players because their qualification has been all but guaranteed?

Well that argument has been conceded by the proposed change in qualification rules from the Pro12

Southmunster,so an organisation that levels payments & have a salary cap. Wonder if such already exist

The PRL has a salary cap and I think that's a good idea. Ideally the 3 leagues would have caps and at a similar level. I've read that certain English clubs flout the cap though. Also certain club owners want complete freedom to run their businesses as they see fit.

SouthMunster, what evidence, from the way the Top 14 and Aviva have been running, have you got to support this view?
Under their clubs' organisational bodies both leagues have become increasingly competitive entities.

It's my opinion based on what I've read and believe. I've seen the way soccer has gone when foreign owners and tv money came in and I don't like it. I see Toulon and Racing metro and Saracens buying in the best players from around the world. And even though the Unions have granted everything the PRL/LNR were reasonably demanding that's not enough. And that makes me wonder about their longterm motives.
The attitude of English supporters seems to be different though.
Are the English and French leagues now more competitive than ever before?
And if so are you so sure that it's not just the money of rich owners that makes it appear that way? Because I don't think that's a sustainable situation.

[willulster]

Looks like you boys will have quite a few free weekends next year to mow the lawn and take the missus to Ikea. Hopefully the result will be the same as the last time you lot boycotted the tournament.

Shame...it was always going to end badly for somebody. I look forward to visiting in January.

[Bill W (2)]

I am amazed that the Rabo Unions apprear to (perhaps) have been conned by the French.

The Top 14 will have an extra 30M Euros to spend. That is enough to buy the entire Welsh International Squad!!!

[TomWeston]

Looks like you boys will have quite a few free weekends next year to mow the lawn and take the missus to Ikea. Hopefully the result will be the same as the last time you lot boycotted the tournament.

Shame...it was always going to end badly for somebody. I look forward to visiting in January.

Oh look - another chicken-counting, gloating Irishman.

[willulster]

Announcement from the Unions due at 7pm. Please join me in my chicken counting post haste.

Maybe you can save face and make your wee Champions Cup an in house competition. The Yanks go crazy for that rounders thing that nobody else is allowed to compete in.

[TomWeston]

..the Rabo clubs can rest players because their qualification has been all but guaranteed?

Well that argument has been conceded by the proposed change in qualification rules from the Pro12

Ah, that's alright then. Only concede the point when you have profited from it for years.

The PRL has a salary cap and I think that's a good idea. Ideally the 3 leagues would have caps and at a similar level. I've read that certain English clubs flout the cap though. Also certain club owners want complete freedom to run their businesses as they see fit.

I think you have been reading fairy tales.

And even though the Unions have granted everything the PRL/LNR were reasonably demanding that's not enough. And that makes me wonder about their longterm motives.

That's just about all that the English/French clubs were demanding 10 years and more back. Most kind of you to concede now that it has done you so much good.