Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

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fleabane
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Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by fleabane » Sun Aug 18, 2013 7:53 pm

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jgriffin
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by jgriffin » Sun Aug 18, 2013 8:57 pm

Inevitable when the ERC (read - Irish) put their feet down and refused even a tiny compromise. Why anyone in their right mind would reject equal qualification rules for all PLUS a well-funded three-tier competition.....unless of course it had been a cash cow for many years.
It is painful enough to be a club side with a draconian but necessary wage cap playing regional sides with no similar restriction (as well as several billionaires toys in the top French clubs), but to be denied parity of access?????
I know the usual apologists for the Rabo will fulminate - you can have your own competition next season, rejoice, you don't need us, do you?
:smt009
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by tigerburnie » Mon Aug 19, 2013 12:34 pm

The Irish(and to a lesser extent the Welsh) are still bleating on that it's just about the money. Well it might be to them, we would like a level playing field with teams actually qualifying and the French would like 20 teams not 24.I don't actually think there can be a resolution, the IRFU are nearly bankrupt and so are ther Welsh it would seem. I've not actually heard anyone from Scotland or Italy say a word, yet the Irish keep saying they have to protect them?
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tig1
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by tig1 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:49 pm

jgriffin wrote:Inevitable when the ERC (read - Irish) put their feet down and refused even a tiny compromise. Why anyone in their right mind would reject equal qualification rules for all PLUS a well-funded three-tier competition.....unless of course it had been a cash cow for many years.
It is painful enough to be a club side with a draconian but necessary wage cap playing regional sides with no similar restriction (as well as several billionaires toys in the top French clubs), but to be denied parity of access?????
I know the usual apologists for the Rabo will fulminate - you can have your own competition next season, rejoice, you don't need us, do you?
:smt009
The time has has come JG to get rid of the wage cap in England It brings nothing to the English game in terms of playing standards, and in terms of equality, well Tigers have been the completely dominant force since its inception. The AP is a way off the HC in terms of playing standards, so it's ridiculous to place your clubs at a disadvantage in the premier competition.

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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by fleabane » Mon Aug 19, 2013 3:59 pm

tig1, you may be right, but also a little off topic. :smt001
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by northerntiger » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:26 pm

I cannot really understand the position of the Rabo teams. Without the English and French, they have no meaningful Euro competition, so would gain no money anyway. Although I wouldn't like to see it, an Anglo-French competition would be valid and produce a high standard of competition if it'd came to that. A cup competition with just the Rabo teams would not be attractive for spectators, TV or sponsors

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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by BJ. » Mon Aug 19, 2013 4:54 pm

IIRC, there's meant to be another meeting next month. I've a feeling the ERC are stonewalling so as to make it nigh on impossible for the English and French clubs to organise something different in time for the start of the 2014/15 season.

If nothing concrete is decided in September that is to the agreement of the English and French contingents, I would strongly recommend they say "That's enough. No more talking" walk away and sort out a new competition. At the end of the day, they want us more than we want them.
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by cidermark » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:14 pm

northerntiger wrote:I cannot really understand the position of the Rabo teams. Without the English and French, they have no meaningful Euro competition, so would gain no money anyway.
Isn't a European Competition without the French and English called the Rabo!!! :smt017 :smt017 :smt002

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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by northerntiger » Mon Aug 19, 2013 5:28 pm

cidermark wrote:
northerntiger wrote:I cannot really understand the position of the Rabo teams. Without the English and French, they have no meaningful Euro competition, so would gain no money anyway.
Isn't a European Competition without the French and English called the Rabo!!! :smt017 :smt017 :smt002
Indeed, no meaningful competition, my point exactly

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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by tig1 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:25 pm

From a purely rugby perspective, the problem i have with this debate, is that essentially the English and French proposal is aimed to bring the standard of Irish rugby DOWN. To batter the Celtic players a bit more in the league games, so they perform to a lower standard in the HC.

Surely the question in the interests of rugby has to be how do you bring English rugby up to that Irish standard. Not the other way around.

The English want a competitive and financial viable AP, ditto HC, plus approximately 14 internationals per year. And they want English players to achieve that under a salary cap system. But then they complain when another country effectively says that is to much for their elite players, so we will focus purely on the premier competition and internationals.

The Irish are no different to NZ, SA and Australia in this respect. They don't expect their elite players to play in provincial completion. It's Super rugby and Internationals only.

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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by northerntiger » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:50 pm

True, but super rugby is played in a league format over a season, a minimum I think of 16 games. HC is a cup competition played within the regular season by the same sides. you can't really compare the two

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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by jgriffin » Mon Aug 19, 2013 6:53 pm

That has got to be one of the oddest and most disconnected arguments I have encountered. Context, dear boy! And there are no aesthetic absolutes in rugby, so 'standard of rugby' arguments are largely talking shops only.
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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by yellow_balaclava_hunter » Mon Aug 19, 2013 7:27 pm

The difficulty is that the Irish, Welsh and Scots have engineered their structure totally around the Heineken Cup. The Rabo League matches are just practice games to them.

Therefore they will want as many of those teams to play in the Heineken. It makes sense for them not to accept any changes.

Unfortunately the English and French have lost their patience with this engineered structure and want qualification on merit, plus like me are probably bored of playing the same Rabo sides over and over again because no new teams can qualify.

There are plenty of formats that different people have suggested on here that would achieve the desired meritocracy.

Unfortunately the Rabo teams don't want any of them and are running the risk of being left with a meaningless league and nothing else.

I would expect that the English and French, if they've got any sense, have already discussed and are close to finalising an alternative arrangement in case the Rabo teams refuse to negotiate.

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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by tig1 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:45 pm

jgriffin wrote:That has got to be one of the oddest and most disconnected arguments I have encountered. Context, dear boy! And there are no aesthetic absolutes in rugby, so 'standard of rugby' arguments are largely talking shops only.
My point is JG, that none of these changes will make Tigers (as an example) a better rugby team. Tigers will still only play aswell as the salary cap allows them.

The fate of English club rugby standards was sealed when they set up a system that in theory would allow 12 or 14 clubs to compete somewhat equally in a domestic league using a salary cap system. In doing so they immediately limited the upside in playing standard for English clubs.

Now, because others have chosen a different route that has made them more competitive we want to complain. We want the HC to be played closer to the standards that our salary capped system has created.

That's the wrong way to go in my opinion, and the best way forward for rugby is to abolish the salary cap and the top English clubs would immediately increase their playing level. The French don't have a salary cap and we had an all French final this year, which really illustrates the point.

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Re: Heineken Cup no nearer a resolution

Post by drc_007 » Mon Aug 19, 2013 8:56 pm

tig1 wrote: The French don't have a salary cap and we had an all French final this year, which really illustrates the point.
The French do have a salary cap.

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