Flood

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Skin_and_Muscle
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Re: Flood

Post by Skin_and_Muscle » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:39 pm

Soggypitch wrote:
Bowden Tiger wrote:I believe that Toby is the best English 10 if you take his overall game. I know results are damning, but they don't tell the full story.
I am a proud Englishman, who wants them to win, but am really concerned at the talent stifling mess that is the current coaching team. They obviously prefer the adherence to strict game plans, with individual skills and talent being wasted.
Did you watch the England v Argentina game on Saturday night? There was a lot of talent not being stifled and playing what was in front of them, not sticking to a rigid game plan.

The talent coming through for England is really exciting - let's hope a few of them get picked when all are available for selection!
A case of when the Farrells' are away, the Catt comes out to play?
Progress requires that the fears of both sides be more fully aired, not that one side wins.

Bowden Tiger
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Re: Flood

Post by Bowden Tiger » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:43 pm

To be fair Soggypitch, the opposition weren't that good, but I take your point and they did look quite good. My point was based on the 6N Wales game.. However, the coaching team were not at full strength at the weekend, with GR and the increasingly influential Mr Farrell on Lions duties. If you get a chance, read Andy Saul's interview on the regime at Saracens where he claims individual talent was ignored in persuit of a structured plan..

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Re: Flood

Post by Bowden Tiger » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:46 pm

Skin_ and_muscle, you beat me to it!

Soggypitch
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Re: Flood

Post by Soggypitch » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:03 pm

Where can I see Andy Saul's interview BT?

Skin....you should have been a headline writer! (perhaps you are) :smt001
Soggypitch

fortysix
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Re: Flood

Post by fortysix » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:06 pm

Doubt very much whether Toby will ever be seen in an England shirt again----he just isnt consistent enough at this level..
Agreed he is better than Farrell who is spectacularly useless apart from his kicking duties, but Burns is the real deal, and who knows whether George will come into the equation.
And Toby's Father isnt an England coach
Though after watching England v Argentina, I personally wish- for the sake of 2015- we never have to see either Farrell again.

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Re: Flood

Post by TigerCam » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:07 pm

Soggypitch wrote:
Bowden Tiger wrote:I believe that Toby is the best English 10 if you take his overall game. I know results are damning, but they don't tell the full story.
I am a proud Englishman, who wants them to win, but am really concerned at the talent stifling mess that is the current coaching team. They obviously prefer the adherence to strict game plans, with individual skills and talent being wasted.
Did you watch the England v Argentina game on Saturday night? There was a lot of talent not being stifled and playing what was in front of them, not sticking to a rigid game plan.

The talent coming through for England is really exciting - let's hope a few of them get picked when all are available for selection!
Great talent displayed on Sat night. I just wonder if Baxter's style will be snuffed out by Farrell Snr?
Whoever said "one person cannot change the world' never ate undercooked bat

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Re: Flood

Post by TigerCam » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:10 pm

fortysix wrote:Doubt very much whether Toby will ever be seen in an England shirt again----he just isnt consistent enough at this level..
Agreed he is better than Farrell who is spectacularly useless apart from his kicking duties, but Burns is the real deal, and who knows whether George will come into the equation.
And Toby's Father isnt an England coach
Though after watching England v Argentina, I personally wish- for the sake of 2015- we never have to see either Farrell again.
I totally agree. Trouble now is the Tigers have Toby, Owen and Ryan and with all three probably available for the club season, how much game time will they actually get? Owen is a real find and it would unforgivable if he goes the same way as George and does not get a real chance.
Whoever said "one person cannot change the world' never ate undercooked bat

Soggypitch
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Re: Flood

Post by Soggypitch » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:12 pm

Farrell Snr is notionally the defence coach, Catt the attack coach so let's hope not!
Soggypitch

Skin_and_Muscle
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Re: Flood

Post by Skin_and_Muscle » Mon Jun 17, 2013 9:21 pm

Soggypitch wrote:Skin....you should have been a headline writer! (perhaps you are) :smt001
Good to know I have a potential plan b!
Progress requires that the fears of both sides be more fully aired, not that one side wins.

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Re: Flood

Post by Jimmy Skitz » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:00 pm

TigerCam wrote:
fortysix wrote:Doubt very much whether Toby will ever be seen in an England shirt again----he just isnt consistent enough at this level..
Agreed he is better than Farrell who is spectacularly useless apart from his kicking duties, but Burns is the real deal, and who knows whether George will come into the equation.
And Toby's Father isnt an England coach
Though after watching England v Argentina, I personally wish- for the sake of 2015- we never have to see either Farrell again.
I totally agree. Trouble now is the Tigers have Toby, Owen and Ryan and with all three probably available for the club season, how much game time will they actually get? Owen is a real find and it would unforgivable if he goes the same way as George and does not get a real chance.
doesn't Ryan Lamb also offer cover at Full Back?
Grimlish wrote:Look, I agree the omission of Flood or A.N.Other alternative fly-half is a bit baffling to say the least, and there's recognition of that in 36's call up IMHO.

However, I wonder whether this tour might actually do young Mr Farrell some good. By all accounts (including mine) he had a poor first game. Since then he has picked up more than somewhat - his kicking is still good, but his ability to release the line seems improved, he's playing flatter and isn't just the metronomic defensive percentage player of the caricature so commonly portrayed here. He's not the complete article, and IMHO not yet the player that our Toby is, but he is young, still learning and improving and might just get there and beyond....

And if so, where does that leave our Toby? With us, more often than not, and that's great by me!

[Note to mods, could we please have an emoticon for; puts on tin hat, and retires toward exit without daring to turn and face that direction?]
is a Lions Test really the place for a poor Fly Half to "learn his trade"?

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Re: Flood

Post by Grimlish » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:20 pm

Jimmy said

is a Lions Test really the place for a poor Fly Half to "learn his trade"?

Jimmy, I agree. But I'd expect a relatively young Lions squad to be learning fast from each other and from new coaches. Farrell won't be only one to learn and improve. He has the chance to be a top fly-half. For that he has to get away from Daddy's apparent influence and to learn to vary his game substantially. For now he isn't there by a country mile. But he is learning.

At least we have the biggest cohort of learners in the squad (ie youngest as well as joint largest).

It's a real shame Toby isnt one of them. But Farrell shouldn't be dismissed lightly.

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Re: Flood

Post by Jimmy Skitz » Mon Jun 17, 2013 10:24 pm

Grimlish wrote:Jimmy said

is a Lions Test really the place for a poor Fly Half to "learn his trade"?

Jimmy, I agree. But I'd expect a relatively young Lions squad to be learning fast from each other and from new coaches. Farrell won't be only one to learn and improve. He has the chance to be a top fly-half. For that he has to get away from Daddy's apparent influence and to learn to vary his game substantially. For now he isn't there by a country mile. But he is learning.

At least we have the biggest cohort of learners in the squad (ie youngest as well as joint largest).

It's a real shame Toby isnt one of them. But Farrell shouldn't be dismissed lightly.
yes and if he was 3rd or 4th choice out there he would still be learning from coaches and team mates but the Test side wouldn't be harmed.

Flood or even O'Gara should be well ahead of Farrell Jr who doesn't even play the position for his own club side

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Re: Flood

Post by MrPartridge » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:18 am

Interesting thread this.

What interests me to some extent with TF is that the international coaches don't appear to fancy him as evidenced by Lancaster selecting Farrell above TF for the 6 Nations decider in Cardiff and WG not calling him up for the Lions at any point.

As a Tigers fan I welcome TF resting up this summer, but also appreciate the Lions Tour would have helped his development. I'm curious why the international coaches don't go for him. My observations are that TF is a good 10 but he could be better: his defence could be stronger (but not many 10's are great defensively), he has a good turn of pace that he doesn't use enough (sometimes I feel Toby runs sideways a little too often) and his kicking can misfire under pressure (as per the key miss v Toulon before half-time and a couple of times with England).

All said and done TF is unlucky to miss-out on the Lions, but I feel he should have put more of a marker down in previous England performances. Tig 1 makes an interesting point re: Toby's England record, but I feel stats can equally be misleading. BOD has started 6 Lions tests and won 1 = awful player :smt002

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Re: Flood

Post by The Boy Dave » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:14 am

I think the biggest thing for me is knowing how good Toby's running game has become. Seeing him play on a regular basis I get the feeling that he is entering his peak. Not sure if we will get the opportunity to see him play alongside players like 36 and Manu or some of the rising talent like Wade and Eastmond. Ok he doesn't drop goals but with 36 outside him there are options to build a varied gameplan but much of that will depend on the ability at 10 to not totally dominate proceedings. Toby does bring his backs talents into the game IMO. I do like Burns also for someone so young but he hasn't had it too difficult yet apart from a couple of games I saw for Glaws when his pack were going backwards and it was tough for him. They are similar players and very close in ability IMO but personally Toby would be my No1 simply because he has earned a proper shot and he is a winner with Tigers. You can't help but be impressed by the way in which he carries himself and shows character. I am excited by some of the possible combinations becoming available to England and how solid the squad options could become but am concerned about the future gameplan.
Cheery chappy

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Re: Flood

Post by Tigerjackflood » Tue Jun 18, 2013 6:00 pm

He has started 20 tests at fly half in the last 3 seasons for England. Thats plenty to nail down selection for a player of his experience and talent. The harsh truth is that England lost 10, drew one, and won only 9 of those 20 games he started at fly half.[/quote]

Okay so... He started the 3 in South Africa in summer last year... Lancasters 1st tour and was also substituted due to injury in the last game which was a draw.and the other two he played great... Scoring a try.
He was left out of six nations except for the Wales game last year then the year before was the World Cup under Johnson which was a flop and then played awsome in the 2 six nations before that.

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