Brian Moore

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APM16
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Re: Brian Moore

Post by APM16 »

'I seem to recollect Jonny Wilkinson getting 'levelled' at Welford Road a few years back by a late tackle, by Harry Ellis I think it was, don't recall any great outcry for cards then.'

Harry Ellis received a yellow card for what was deemed a late challenge on Johnny Wilkinson at Welford Road(personally, I didn't consider Harry's challenge dangerous and thought the yellow card was harsh) - Lawes challenge was dangerous, and he appeared to set out to poleaxe Toby Flood(with a cursory wrap after the contact to make it appear a legal tackle). Even American Football had to face up to the problem of late hits(designed to injure) and the officiating teams set out to penalise them more appropriately last season. The bottom line is Barnes should have called for the TMO( he appeared to change his mind - possibly because the screens at Twickenham are to far away for him to see clearly, and he'd have to allow the TMO to make the decision whether the challenge was dangerous and warranted a yellow card).

Personally, I'm sick and tired of Mallinder's approach - cultivating an excess of ill-feeling and bad-blood into what I always considered a fierce but fair local rivalry. I couldn't agree more with Richard Cockerill's after match comments.
"How Northampton decide to behave is up to them," said Cockerill. Because my players weren't accusing other players of anything or hitting people late. Leicester were very disciplined and thus got their rewards. I didn't ask anybody to hit anybody late. I didn't tell someone to swear at anybody."
"I was saying to the fourth official surely we need to go to the television match official," he said.

"It's clearly foul play, a penalty is given and you've broken an international fly-half. For me it's a yellow card or potentially more.

"It's OK to hit players late and OK for players to leave the field concussed, is that what we're saying? I'm protecting my players."
Jose
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Re: Brian Moore

Post by Jose »

Ellis also racked up a ban for a no less legitimate tackle on Dan Carter.

There was a lot of stuff about Lawes being committed to the first tackle, but having watched it a few times he didn’t actually fully commit to the tackle until after he knew the ball was going and deliberately accelerated through the tackle as hard as possible in the knowledge that the ball wasn’t there. Nothing courageous about hitting skilful players late. Lack of duty of care from Lawes, if that happened week in week out then there wouldn’t be many attacking fly halves surviving games. Loads of players are committed to tackles when the ball is gone every week, but they generally try to soften the effect, not hurt the opponent. The first one noticed was actually the second attempt, Lawes had missed an attempted late tackle on Flood about 12 mins earlier when Flood just evaded it. Think Lawes, like many Saints players, will not have an international career unless his club coaches actually decided to teach him control and discipline, and stops trying to blame everybody else for Saints’ self-inflicted woes.

Whilst Cockerill's behaviour may not be the most appealing, I'm inclined to agree that it wasn't our players making late hits and swearing at people, so I think I know where the problem really lies.
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Johnnyg
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Re: Brian Moore

Post by Johnnyg »

Lawes' tackle was very marginally late. Similar tackles in terms of lateness happen in every match, but without the consequences. The severity was as a result of Cole's knee, not Lawes' poor technique which was perfect and legal. He was very unlucky to have been penalised. If, as demanded by Cockers, this had gone upstairs for review by the TMO from multiple angle, it seems to me unlikely even a penalty would have been awarded. As for the suggestion that a lawful tackle (i.e. both arms around the tackled player, below the neck) can be unreasonable merely as a result of the potential consequences of the tackler being big and powerful, well that is a problem with the game being a contact sport.
Let's stick to our good points. Criticising Lawes is not one of them. And Cockerill needs to stay in his seat; there is a danger he is remembered for this sort of stuff rather than for being a very good coach of the most successful team ever in English Rugby.
snoopster
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Re: Brian Moore

Post by snoopster »

APM16 wrote: The bottom line is Barnes should have called for the TMO( he appeared to change his mind - possibly because the screens at Twickenham are to far away for him to see clearly, and he'd have to allow the TMO to make the decision whether the challenge was dangerous and warranted a yellow card).
I think the reason Barnes started to call for the TMO then changed his mind is the AR near the incident reported it and said it was a penalty but he'd not seen the shirt number, at which point Barnes started to signal for the TMO, then the other AR interjected with the fact it was Lawes, so Barnes didn't look to the TMO to identify the player.
I think Barnes got it right, myself, under the laws of the game it was a border line penalty and nothing more - the intent doesn't come into it, Lawes started to launch himself as Flood passed the ball. The TMO might even have cleared Lawes of the penalty, if Barnes had asked him to check it.
APM16 wrote:Personally, I'm sick and tired of Mallinder's approach - cultivating an excess of ill-feeling and bad-blood into what I always considered a fierce but fair local rivalry. I couldn't agree more with Richard Cockerill's after match comments.
I do completely agree with this - it has seemed to me for a while now that the Saints's tactics under Mallinder are to try to rough up Tigers.
In the game where Manu punched Ashton, I think that incident overshadows the play of Saints - in that game Dowson and Lawes could, and probably should, have seen yellow for late hits early on. I suspect that was part of why Tuilagi reacted as he did to the knee in the back from Ashton - the Tigers's players knew what Saints were trying to do and were angry about it.
Very smart of Mallinder though, he allows his players (with borderline at best legal roughing up of the other team) and Dorian (to distract from the times the Saints players cross the line of legality by attacking the other team in interviews) to do his dirty work while he keeps his own hands clean.
Bowden Tiger
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Re: Brian Moore

Post by Bowden Tiger »

Unfortunately, I think that Rugby is the loser here. In Saint's last 2 matches of this season the opposition fly half has been targetted. They use CL as the battering ram, an exocet, and it is illegal IMHO. In both cases they have set out to deliberately take a player out of the gane with big hits. They are not miss timed, or in the heat of the moment, but again in IMHO pre-meditated.
Rubgy needs to deal with it!
With RC, yes he was angry, as were most Tigers fans, but have we any evidence that he used foul language or abused the official? Has there been a complaint made? Brian Moore is anti RC, and always has been- there is history. However, he is allowed to have his rant, without fear of reprimand, unfair you may think!
He was a good player, but has never been a coach. He gets his position as a pundit / writer because he is opinionated and exposes nerves, not because he is always right!.
tigerburnie
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Re: Brian Moore

Post by tigerburnie »

Last two are very good posts, I put the blame for the Saints woes fairly and squarely at the Malinder and Wests door(West in particular in our case)
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
kend
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Re: Brian Moore

Post by kend »

From Rugby Union Post Match Analysis Operational Definitions:

Action: Late Tackle
Description: The player has tackled an opponent at a significant time after they had possession of the ball
Are you a match analyst H's dad? I've been thinking about doing that CPD course. My understanding is the PMA definitions are a tool to enable the analyst to count occurences, they aren't statements about the laws or reflecting refereeing guidelines?
As for the suggestion that a lawful tackle (i.e. both arms around the tackled player, below the neck) can be unreasonable merely as a result of the potential consequences of the tackler being big and powerful, well that is a problem with the game being a contact sport.
A lawful tackle isn't at issue here - if the tackle is late it isn't lawful. Did Flood have the ball at the point Lawes hit him? If the answer is no, then he's risking conceding a penalty, which is what happened. Sometimes you get away with it and sometimes you don't. Both TJs were involved in making the call.
Ian Cant
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Re: Brian Moore

Post by Ian Cant »

Great game, great passion by both sets of players, coaches and fans, so let Moore have his say but also accept, like Mick Cleary did, that Tigers were deserved winners. Yes Saints played well with 149making it a great spectacle) but which team hasn't upped the stakes with 14! Bath did even better with even less men at the Walkers against us- we did the same to Saints under Johnno (then there was Sale after White's punch). As for Cockerill, as yet no complaints from officials- he is a top bloke with the press and public and only asks officials for clarity on certain situations-I was raging at Lawes too from the North stand but having watched the replays admit it was just a bl--dy good,albeit late tackle. penalty yes-which Flood would have kicked. JUST LET'S ENJOY BEING CHAMPIONS.
Daveyboy
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Re: Brian Moore

Post by Daveyboy »

Ian Cant wrote: JUST LET'S ENJOY BEING CHAMPIONS.
Indeed. :smt038
Today is yesterday's tomorrow.
h's dad
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Re: Brian Moore

Post by h's dad »

kend wrote:Are you a match analyst H's dad? I've been thinking about doing that CPD course. My understanding is the PMA definitions are a tool to enable the analyst to count occurences, they aren't statements about the laws or reflecting refereeing guidelines?
:smt046 That really will have anybody who knows me laughing. Yes you're right about the definition but it was the clearest most authoritative I could find easily. From an embarrassingly less reputable source I've got, "Referees may not penalise some of these infringements if in their judgement the offending player had no intent to break the rules (e.g. a marginally late tackle on a player who has just kicked or passed the ball)". As usual couldn't find much that was clear by the RFU.

I think Toby knew the (first) tackle was coming in and ignored it to get a good pass away. Hero.
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DickyP
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Re: Brian Moore

Post by DickyP »

Just think - if the IRB's new interpretations/instruction re scrum are actually implemented next season (which I believe to be doubtful but sincerely hope I'm wrong) the likes of Brian Moore will be in demand to teach hookers how to hook! At least we at Tigers have got Chutes and in extremis Peter Wheeler.
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He marks - not that you won or lost - but how you played the Game."
yellow_balaclava_hunter
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Re: Brian Moore

Post by yellow_balaclava_hunter »

I think that Brian Moore is incorrect with this article.

Firstly the scrum where he claims that 'Leicester illegally drove early'. whilst the statement is true, Northampton had engaged before the 'set' command prior to Leicester then driving therefore Northampton infringed first.

Secondly Richard Cockerill is well within his rights to complain about referees in any way he sees fit. This is because this and other clubs have complained through the 'proper channels' on numerous occasions only to be ignored.

The two teams in the final got a referee that neither wanted and one that had received complaints from both clubs on numerous occasions. It is an insult to both clubs and the other referees that the season deciding match can be adjudicated by such a poor quality referee.

The lack of action by the authorities has left club representatives with next to no confidence in the officiating and a feeling that they are being ignored. The only way to make sure that you are heard is to then behave like Richard Cockerill did in the final.
jgriffin
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Re: Brian Moore

Post by jgriffin »

All I'm going to post is:
1 Charlie Hodgson in the semifinal - what happened to the Saffas playmaker?
2 How does that differ from what happened to Toby?
3 How is that different from most Stains/Tigers games?
4 We won.
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paddysdad
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Re: Brian Moore

Post by paddysdad »

No. 10s should wear bubble wrap kit.
youngtiger
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Re: Brian Moore

Post by youngtiger »

jgriffin wrote:All I'm going to post is:
1 Charlie Hodgson in the semifinal - what happened to the Saffas playmaker?
2 How does that differ from what happened to Toby?
3 How is that different from most Stains/Tigers games?
4 We won.
1-3 Very good observation.
4 Mr Moore, being a hairyqueens fan, you ought to be aware that there is a reason that COS, along with RC and others, have consistently made their feelings about the quality and consistency of the refereeing seen this season. Though the style in which RC made his sentiments felt may not have been acceptable to you, his argument about the need for referral is solid, and what you have taken part in is a boring and fairly cynical attempt to remove attention from the fact that Tigers won, yet again.

One more thing, Mr Moore, and don't you forget it: WEEEE ARE THE CHAMPIOOONSS... :smt001
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