Brian Moore

[cidermark]

What saddens me about the Lawes/Flood thing is that Lawes knew exactly what he was doing and that his intention seemed to be to hurt the player and not defend against him.

I have always had a lot of time for Lawes, he's a great player, hit by some unfortunately timed injuries, but got himself back to where he should be. To descend into thuggery like this doesn't, or shouldn't, become a player of his calibre.

[Soggypitch]

I repeat if Cockers had sat in his chair for a minute longer and watched the replay, he would have seen it was not a dangerous tackle, just a tiny bit late - penalty not yellow card. It was Cole's knee that knocked Floody out.

If Salvi or Croft had made a similar tackle on Myler and Mallinder had made the same fuss, we would all have been saying "the big girls blouse..." take the hit like a man, and move on.

I've watched the replay a few times now and only one person comes out of it badly, not Lawes but Cockers for his Ferguson style histrionics!!

As Brian Moore says if the RFU don't stop this sort of behavior now it will only become more prevalent, and we will have more football style crass and classless "managers" pontificating on the touchline!!

Is that what we really want?! Or can we actually accept that although we have a fantastically talented, loyal, passionate coach, just occasionally his behavior is neither appropriate nor in keeping with the spirit of Rugby Union and in particular LFC.

[cidermark]

As Brian Moore says if the RFU don't stop this sort of behavior now it will only become more prevalent, and we will have more football style crass and classless "managers" pontificating on the touchline!!

Instead we'll just end up with, not only crass and classless, but also moronic pontifications from a mindless idiot with a microphone and a twitter account!!!

[Soggypitch]

What saddens me about the Lawes/Flood thing is that Lawes knew exactly what he was doing and that his intention seemed to be to hurt the player and not defend against him.

I have always had a lot of time for Lawes, he's a great player, hit by some unfortunately timed injuries, but got himself back to where he should be. To descend into thuggery like this doesn't, or shouldn't, become a player of his calibre.

You must have watched a different tackle to me, yes it was a split second late but it was not dangerous at all - I have read most of the printed media and nobody thinks Lawes was out of order.

Bloomin' heck we have had a succession of Tuilagis play for us, most of whom had to be taught to tackle using their arms not their shoulders (typical south sea islanders), take off your red white and green glasses and look at the video!!

[Bill W (2)]

Perhaps DoR's and head coaches should be kept in a box and not allowed to approach the 4th official or the touch line?

[cidermark]

Soggypitch - please read my post again!!!!

I didn't mean to imply that he cheated in any way - just that his intent wasn't to defend only to damage. Whilst there are many players who do tackle that way, it hasn't always been in Lawes's repertoire.

Yes, rugby is a hard, physical game, but should a player really be intent on stopping an opponent from playing again? Thankfully many players do get up and carry on but there are also others who don't.

[WhitecapTiger]

We need to be very careful, Barnes chose to red card Hartley but this isn't the first instance of a rugby player swearing at the ref.

True but, I can honestly say this is the first occasion I have heard a professional rugby player, and a captain, call a ref a cheat - I believe it was directed at Barnes - and be so stupid to do it when he was on the knife edge following a prior warning shortly before. I don't believe it was for the use of an expletive. It was I believe because Barnes felt his integrity had been impugned.

[kend]

I repeat if Cockers had sat in his chair for a minute longer and watched the replay, he would have seen it was not a dangerous tackle, just a tiny bit late - penalty not yellow card. It was Cole's knee that knocked Floody out.

Well, the law says:

"10.4 (e) Dangerous tackling. A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously". Or alternatively: "Playing a player without the ball is dangerous play".

You can't separate the cause from the effect - whether Flood was concussed by Cole's knee, Lawe's forehead or the ground, the cause was Lawes late tackle. The fact is the officials gave a penalty - so they agree it was late.

As I said in an earlier post,as a player you know what you are about, and IMHO Lawes intended to hit Flood whether he had the ball or not. Sometimes you get away with it and sometimes you don't - I think Lawes got away with one! Just my view of course

[Bill W (2)]

I repeat if Cockers had sat in his chair for a minute longer and watched the replay, he would have seen it was not a dangerous tackle, just a tiny bit late - penalty not yellow card. It was Cole's knee that knocked Floody out.

Well, the law says:

"10.4 (e) Dangerous tackling. A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously". Or alternatively: "Playing a player without the ball is dangerous play".

You can't separate the cause from the effect - whether Flood was concussed by Cole's knee, Lawe's forehead or the ground, the cause was Lawes late tackle. The fact is the officials gave a penalty - so they agree it was late.

As I said in an earlier post,as a player you know what you are about, and IMHO Lawes intended to hit Flood whether he had the ball or not. Sometimes you get away with it and sometimes you don't - I think Lawes got away with one! Just my view of course

He dod not get away with it he gave away a penalty.

Cochers felt he deserved a yellow card.

[The Boy Dave]

We will no doubt see a late tackler yellow carded for similar to the Lawes tackles in the future and I expect we will all hear swearing at some point whilst watching a match next season and it will go unpunished. As long as a referee is allowed to use his own view's instead of sticking to the laws of the game then I suppose the inconsistency will continue to evolve into farce. It has been a poor season for referee's IMO as we have seen knock-ons yellow carded and then a week later not carded, scrummaging has become a complete mess and we seem to have new rule changes year after year just to compensate for referee's that struggle to work it all out. Rucking is a complete mystery to me these days be it in at the side, off your feet, shoulder charging or over the top it is just a lottery. I'm not surprised that Myler didn't hear Barnes instructions before that ill fated restart as I couldn't hear two rows in front of me. The amount of times a referee struggles to communicate with his officials you would think he get's the picture but no, he will play to the laws of the game when it suits him and he will use common sense when it suit's him. Yes people should behave and yes we should put respect at the top of the list of issue's but is it any wonder that people become so frustrated that they end up swearing and waving their arms about.

[tigerburnie]

The un written law of rugby is respect for the ref, he was always reffered to as "sir", not ref and I understand that does still happen.
As for Brian Moore, he is turning into a repetative whinger at times, he'll be on that program "grumpy old men" before long with Rick Wakeman, Arthur Smith and a few from this messageboard too.

[Tiger_in_Birmingham]

What saddens me about the Lawes/Flood thing is that Lawes knew exactly what he was doing and that his intention seemed to be to hurt the player and not defend against him.

most players go into the tackle looking to hurt (not injure) - you want to batter and bruise your opponent, make them nervous and get them shipping the ball early/without looking- force errors out of fear for your ribs

Well, the law says:

"10.4 (e) Dangerous tackling. A player must not tackle an opponent early, late or dangerously". Or alternatively: "Playing a player without the ball is dangerous play".

You can't separate the cause from the effect - whether Flood was concussed by Cole's knee, Lawe's forehead or the ground, the cause was Lawes late tackle. The fact is the officials gave a penalty - so they agree it was late.

If Lawes had perpetually remained horizontal into the tackle & Floody hadn't have fallen down, and had gone up instead, he'd be fine - the ultimate cause was gravity! This is all Sir Isaac's fault - exhume him and hang him!


Maybe we should introduce a law to prevent things like Cole's knee being in the way of Flood's falling head. Tidy up the game that all tackles must be one on one - and no competition for the ball - so you can recycle cleanly and easily. Maybe we should get the defending team to retreat 10m to clear some space for the next attack. Also while we're at it, because there's no competition at the breakdown, we should make it so that after 5 tackles you have to give the ball back to the opponents for defending so diligently.

[Chobbsy]

[quote="WhitecapTiger"]Agree, with you and Moore.

If it had been the other way around I'm sure Cockers would be saying what a great tackle our lad had made. A bit more control (acceptance/tolerance maybe?) needed, and if required channel it into the right (a better?) outlet, but i'd never want to completely remove his *cough* "enthusiasm" *cough*[/quote]
If you listen to Cocker's interview what he is saying is the ref and the officals gave the penalty for foul play, regardless of if it was a good tackle or not the officals deemed it to be foul play and foul play should be punished with a yellow card.
Again I stess I am not saying he was or wasn't late but by the mere fact they gave a penalty for foul play meant that in their opinions it was late and should have earned 10 minutes in the bin....he could have then warmed the seat for Pratley...sorry I mean Hartley.

[G.K]

There have been plenty of cases where late tackles have not resulted in a yellow card. I seem to recollect Jonny Wilkinson getting 'levelled' at Welford Road a few years back by a late tackle, by Harry Ellis I think it was, don't recall any great outcry for cards then.

As for the TMO I thought it was there to be used where a match official wasn't sure whether foul play had taken place, not as an 'on the spot' review sytem for all penalty decisions. As the AR had clearly seen the incident and made his reccommendation there was no need to revert to it's use.

Don't have a problem with Cockers being passionate and seeking to protect his players but berating match officials in the way that he did should not be allowed by anyone.

[h's dad]

This forum is more likely to think the hits were wrong than anywhere else, yet even on this forum most seem to think they were good legal hits. Surely you can see this?

IMHO there is a misunderstanding here - a late tackle is a late tackle. There is no mitigation for being committed or 'in the air', it remains the tacklers responsibility to ensure they don't hit late. The onus isn't on the ball carrier to pass earlier!

Penalty was the right call, the mitigation was no card. However, us be honest here, as a player you know exactly what you are about, and IMHO Lawes went out to hit Flood as hard as he could whether he had the ball or not. I think one of the commentators said that 'Lawes had got away with one', and I think that's about right.

From Rugby Union Post Match Analysis Operational Definitions:

Action: Late Tackle
Description: The player has tackled an opponent at a significant time after they had possession of the ball