George Ford?

[bluntiger]

Great post TigerAlex, I felt exactly the same when I read Smudge's post.

And the constant banging of the 'change the coaches' drum is irritating in the extreme.

[tigerburnie]

It is difficult when we see players leaving that, for whatever reason, we would prefer that they stayed. I thought we made a big mistake letting Billy Twelvetrees go and there are similarities in the these two players. With hindsight when I look where we are now, I don't think Billy would be playing every week with us and I see him getting better with game time. But will he develop as well as if he'd stayed with us? We don't know.
Managing people in whatever environment you are in causes potential situations,some always feel that someone else is being treated favourably, some think they are better than others. But to get the job done in a competative environment, there are always going to be casualties. If the end target is acheived then no harm is done to that business and sometimes the discarded individual can also benefit from change.
As we don't know what the "objectives " are at Tigers as far as those in control are concerned, we just have to await the end of the season and see what the outcome is.
At present we are one stage further ahead than last year in our Heineken campaign was concerned, we are however two steps back in the LV success. We currently sit in the same position in the league, so currently on target, should we win our last game we will be on a parr with last year. Would I call that a disaster? No.Is it progress? depends if we get to the final again. Is it a success? Depends on the result in the final.
Do I continue to support thr whole team going forwards? of course I do,win or lose I'm still a Tigers man.

[Smudge]

Alex wrote:-

Oh really? Pray tell who are your sources for this? I'm sure you will make up an excuse for not naming names, but I'm also sure you will understand everyone else when they don't believe you. You see, I could say that I have sources from within the club who say that Ford is an over-entitled kid who thinks he's better than he is.

An insulting post if ever there was one. If I say something is true, it is true. I am not a liar and I resent your implication that I am.

[WhitecapTiger]

An insulting post if ever there was one. If I say something is true, it is true. I am not a liar and I resent your implication that I am.

Depends how you read it, I believe TigerAlex was merely asking for a 'source' to your unproven assertions. That doesn't mean he was calling you a liar.

A final thought: when was the last time you saw a Tigers player in the newspapers for being drunk and disorderly or having been arrested? There's more to bringing on young players than nurturing their talent.

Great overall post TigerAlex However, to play devil's advocate (before anyone else tries to shoot you down), Manu did get himself arrested for jumping off a ferry after the RWC.......stupidity and youth more than anything but daft with the media spotlight on him. Not Cockers' fault of course and Cockers and Tigers handled it v well IMO, Mrs Tuilagi and the Senior Brothers probably had more to do with 'straightening' Manu out than the club though

[TigerAlex]

Alex wrote:-

Oh really? Pray tell who are your sources for this? I'm sure you will make up an excuse for not naming names, but I'm also sure you will understand everyone else when they don't believe you. You see, I could say that I have sources from within the club who say that Ford is an over-entitled kid who thinks he's better than he is.

An insulting post if ever there was one. If I say something is true, it is true. I am not a liar and I resent your implication that I am.

You see, this is the thing about the internet. Anybody can set up an account under the cloak of anonymity and claim lots of things to be true. I don't know you. You don't know me. I don't think it's insulting to ask someone you don't know for the source of their information, especially if it's basically the centre of the argument. I'm sure you're an honest bloke, but I don't know that and I don't know you. You're just another anonymous on the internet. As am I. I'm an honest person, but I wouldn't expect you to believe everything I claim is fact without proof. It's not insulting. It's being internet savvy.

I also note that you haven't addressed the rest of my post.

[johnthegriff]

At the time George Ford decided to leave Tigers he had started 11 matches and Flood had started 14, it was the start of the 6 Nations so Flood was due to miss a few games. Last season George played in two finals, he was getting match time and experience. George is a good prospect but he lacks patience. I believe that like his brother he is being badly advised by his Dad. I am sorry that he is leaving Tigers but Cockers job depends on the team winning matches now, it would be no defence to say we have finished mid table or worse but three young players have improved so much that next season we will only have them for half our game as they will be with England. Players joining Tigers expect to play in finals, players leaving Leicester rarely do.

[TigerAlex]

At the time George Ford decided to leave Tigers he had started 11 matches and Flood had started 14, it was the start of the 6 Nations so Flood was due to miss a few games. Last season George played in two finals, he was getting match time and experience. George is a good prospect but he lacks patience. I believe that like his brother he is being badly advised by his Dad. I am sorry that he is leaving Tigers but Cockers job depends on the team winning matches now, it would be no defence to say we have finished mid table or worse but three young players have improved so much that next season we will only have them for half our game as they will be with England. Players joining Tigers expect to play in finals, players leaving Leicester rarely do.

[Smudge]

Alex wrote:_

You see, this is the thing about the internet. Anybody can set up an account under the cloak of anonymity and claim lots of things to be true. I don't know you. You don't know me. I don't think it's insulting to ask someone you don't know for the source of their information, especially if it's basically the centre of the argument. I'm sure you're an honest bloke, but I don't know that and I don't know you. You're just another anonymous on the internet. As am I. I'm an honest person, but I wouldn't expect you to believe everything I claim is fact without proof. It's not insulting. It's being internet savvy.

Internet savvy is not good manners and claiming it, is no excuse for them.
My pals and I have strong connections to the club going back to the 1950s.
My word is my bond and I am not in the habit of telling lies.
As for anonymity, I will gladly meet you at WR any time as I am sure will Bill.
Of course I won't name my sources on here because of any embarrassment it may cause them. However, I can assure you, I do trust what I hear.
This may be a 21st century medium, but my generation are more substantial than that.

[TigerAlex]

Internet savvy is not good manners and claiming it, is no excuse for them.

Internet savvy has nothing to do with manners. I'm not stupid enough to believe everything anyone says to me, whether on the internet or face-to-face, hence asking you to back up certain assertions with some kind of proof. That's all.

My pals and I have strong connections to the club going back to the 1950s.

Not to sound disrespectful or anything, but in the context of this forum I don't really care. It doesn't make your opinion any more valid than anyone else's and it doesn't necessarily mean that you know more than anybody else either. Things are not the same now as they were in the 1950s. As much as you or I might wish some things were the same, the club has to deal with things as they are now which includes money, salary restrictions, play-offs, depletions due to international call-ups etc all of which makes for a much less sentimental environment.

My word is my bond and I am not in the habit of telling lies.

Good for you. I wish more people had those sorts of values but as I said before, anyone can say that. It may well be true, but I don't know that. Maybe it's just a sad reflection of society that you can't trust anyone anymore.

I would like to think that I have the same values, but honestly, would you believe everything I said just because I said that I'm not in the habit of telling lies?

As for anonymity, I will gladly meet you at WR any time as I am sure will Bill.

That wouldn't really prove much that I didn't already know and still wouldn't prove your honesty. Blame the people who aren't as honest as you for this attitude.

Of course I won't name my sources on here because of any embarrassment it may cause them. However, I can assure you, I do trust what I hear.

Fair enough. I reserve my right to disbelieve then. It's nothing personal. Afterall, there are enough current players who have come out with a lot of praise for the club and the coaches and the fact that several have re-signed, supposedly for less than they could have got elsewhere seems to back that up. Also, you might be interested to read a bit about Craig Newby in the Rugby Paper. He has some very nice things to say about the club.

This may be a 21st century medium, but my generation are more substantial than that.

What exactly is that supposed to mean?

[Northeast Tiger]

What a great debate and food for thought.
For me personally having coached youth rugby, you have to take all things in to consideration. I would leave out star players in my starting fifteen much to the consternation of some parents win at all cost mentality. These players were left out due to their inability to play and work as a team. Or they were bad trainers or parents wanting to take their kids to another club where they would get more opportunities. Coaches treat all as equals but does not mean they have to like the players.
George Ford is is still young and not as good as Toby. George Ford was England under 18's best player in that age group World Cup. He had rave reviews and was touted as the next Johnny Wilkinson. His inside centre was a quiet lad who could tackle, but was not thought of as in the same class as George. His name was Owen Farrel. (Ring any Bells)
Another centre was Elliot Daly. These lads have progressed as has the number seven has Matt Kvesic.
I think George will not make it as England's number 10 and I think it will be due to his Father's intervention. When Mike Ford loses his job at Barf when they have a :censored: season next year, what then for George?
Long live King Richard Cockerill. He is our head coach and he has done wonders within the wage cap. Let us win the Premiership with 100% support and cut out the whingeing. If you support Tigers then support the management. This is not football. If you do not like what Cockers is doing then stay at home and grow some leeks for the local vegetable show.

[h's dad]

This may be a 21st century medium, but my generation are more substantial than that.

What exactly is that supposed to mean?

As am I Smudge. I'm certainly much more substantial than medium.

[Skin_and_Muscle]

This may be a 21st century medium, but my generation are more substantial than that.

Should my generation not be trusted when making unsubstantiated claims, then?!

Generally, a truth is not absolute but a product of effort and a variety of elements. On a forum, one of those elements is a verifiable source. Without it, it can be hard to be convincing and a 'truth' is only so when it convinces.

Ultimately, there have been a few posts on this forum that don't address the point you made but the way it was made. It would have been less effort if you just gave a source.

[kornboy130]

At the time he signed for Bath Ford had started 1 less Flood - and not played well in them either.

You might not need your best 15 out every week - but you need players who want/expect starts to be meriting them. Ford was not.

[os99]

Long live King Richard Cockerill. He is our head coach and he has done wonders within the wage cap. Let us win the Premiership with 100% support and cut out the whingeing. If you support Tigers then support the management. This is not football. If you do not like what Cockers is doing then stay at home and grow some leeks for the local vegetable show.

I agree 100%

At the time he signed for Bath Ford had started 1 less Flood - and not played well in them either.

You might not need your best 15 out every week - but you need players who want/expect starts to be meriting them. Ford was not.

Exactly, how can Ford expect to be given more game time when he wasn't even putting in the performances to warrant selection ahead of Flood. No player is bigger than the team which is why it's great to have Cockers in charge as he embraces the culture of the club.

[Smudge]

What exactly is that supposed to mean?

You may be a keyboard warrior sunbeam but I am not.
Talk to me on the message link and I will arrange for you to meet me and my chums to hear our informed opinions at first hand.

That's of course if you ever go to WR.