Deliberate Knock-ons

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physiodan
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Deliberate Knock-ons

Post by physiodan » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:03 pm

Your thoughts please...

This is an area that has obviously been close to our hearts recently but I feel it is another area of Opaque Clarity. The referee judges a deliberate Knock-on as an attempt to knock the ball forwards to prevent the completion of a pass and an accidental knock on as an attempted catch with two hands is made but fails.

I personally would like to see the rule change to make it more clear cut for refs. If you go for the interception and make one touch and knock on then it is a penalty. If you however manage to make a second touch before the ball hits the ground then the call is accidental and a scrum is called.

That would have made the decisions against Cole and Flood both penalties as they were but it also may stop the temptation of going for it unless you know you can make it.

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Re: Deliberate Knock-ons

Post by tigerburnie » Wed Apr 10, 2013 5:26 pm

Thing is how do we know if it was deliberate or just plain clumsy? For me a knock on is a knock on and a scrum is called, no grey areas, simple.
I'm starting to think we don't need yellow cards, send a player off for violent conduct as we always did,everything else is already covered with the laws of the game.
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Re: Deliberate Knock-ons

Post by jgriffin » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:17 pm

To penalise a knock on with a penalty is wrong. If a player is close enough to the pass to touch the ball, he was close enough to catch it if lucky.
Considering that offsides and obstruction go unpenalised nowadays, especially if you are the ABs or a Rabo side......
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jamiewilkinson
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Re: Deliberate Knock-ons

Post by jamiewilkinson » Wed Apr 10, 2013 7:44 pm

Its a grey area that is down to the discretion of the officials, and think it will always be.

Scrap the yellow cards and players will do it more often cynically and at crucial times. Keep it as it is, they all know the risk when they attempt to go for it.

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Re: Deliberate Knock-ons

Post by drc_007 » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:12 pm

We have all seen occasions where the ball has been knocked on where a completed pass would have resulted in a try. In those circumstances I'd have a yellow card and penalty try.

I've little sympathy for those that commit "professional" fouls.

Old Hob
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Re: Deliberate Knock-ons

Post by Old Hob » Wed Apr 10, 2013 8:20 pm

It does not seem to be a grey area at all. Succeed - fine; fail and, whatever your intention, you are a villain - penalty.
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physiodan
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Re: Deliberate Knock-ons

Post by physiodan » Wed Apr 10, 2013 10:06 pm

Old Hob wrote:It does not seem to be a grey area at all. Succeed - fine; fail and, whatever your intention, you are a villain - penalty.
The grey area comes when a player makes an attempt to catch the ball and knocks on. The ball leaves his hand in an upwards motion rather than being slapped down and the ref gives a penalty rather than a knock on. When this occurs it needs more clarity! Morris's yellow was a clear attempted catch!

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Re: Deliberate Knock-ons

Post by Farmboy » Wed Apr 10, 2013 11:53 pm

Knocking the ball in a downward motion(esp with one hand) with little chance of catching or upwards with no attempt to catch equals penalty,eg Dan on Sunday, stopping a likely try scoring chance then yellow card.Knocking the ball upwards with attempt to catch equals scrum,eg Toby.
A query Why wasn't the slap by the Toulon forward(believe Kennedy)out of Ben's hand (deliberate knock on)a penalty and card?

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Re: Deliberate Knock-ons

Post by drc_007 » Thu Apr 11, 2013 7:19 am

Farmboy wrote: A query Why wasn't the slap by the Toulon forward(believe Kennedy)out of Ben's hand (deliberate knock on)a penalty and card?
The ball went backward.

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Re: Deliberate Knock-ons

Post by DickyP » Thu Apr 11, 2013 8:55 am

physiodan wrote:... If you however manage to make a second touch before the ball hits the ground then the call is accidental and a scrum is called.
This was exactly the case when Niall Morris got carded against Saints - in fact I do not see how under any existing proviso this could be adjudged 'deliberate', let alone a penalty and yellow card. Manu's 'deliberate' knock on in the same game was also dodgy in that he was in an interception position and appeared to touch the ball with both hands (which is covered in current guidance as NOT a deliberate knock on). I even (wash my mouth out) thought Saints were hard done by with their penalised one in the first half, although it should still have been a penalty anyway as Tonga'uiha came from the Tigers side and picked up the ball in an offside position to prevent Tigers carrying on the attack.

The guidance on judging deliberate or not should include the proviso that the knocker-on was actually in a position to catch the ball or not. Dan Cole was clearly making no sensible attempt, whereas Toby Flood's was actually perfectly catchable if he'd made contact slightly differently: his, however, arguably did prevent the distinct possibility of a try being scored.

Of course it can be an even worse refereeing decision as it was a couple of seasons back where Alex Tuilagi knocked the ball upward and forward from the opponents pass, the ref (who I think was Rose) blew immediately even though Alex then caught the ball and was away with no-one to beat. Ref did have the good grace to apologise and give us the put in.
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Re: Deliberate Knock-ons

Post by jgriffin » Thu Apr 11, 2013 11:12 am

So what is the difference between a slap-down out of a players hands (deliberate and not a rip)and a failed interception? Obstructing an attack and halting it by palming the ball?
In the era of rush defences and deliberate obstructive defensive alignments when is one a penalty and the other not?
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Jay C
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Re: Deliberate Knock-ons

Post by Jay C » Thu Apr 11, 2013 1:38 pm

jgriffin wrote:So what is the difference between a slap-down out of a players hands (deliberate and not a rip)and a failed interception? Obstructing an attack and halting it by palming the ball?
For me - nothing, both are penalties.

Last week Toby deliberately hit the ball to prevent the overlap from scoring. If he had caught it then fair play, but he didn't so it was deliberate & had to be a penalty - regardless of direction of the ball or the hand. Dan just got in the way & slapped the ball down - again, deliberate & a penalty.
Yellow cards should be kept for cynical/foul play & both actions are debatable in this regard. I would not argue with a yellow for Toby, but was unhappy with the one for Dan - but that's just my interpretation !

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Re: Deliberate Knock-ons

Post by amazing tiger » Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:39 pm

morris and flood were unlucky to get yellow cards but cole did deserve yellow just stuck his arm out

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Re: Deliberate Knock-ons

Post by amazing tiger » Thu Apr 11, 2013 3:43 pm

Yellow cards should be kept for cynical/foul play

i dissagree if you stop a clear cut try you should be awarded a yellow card

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Re: Deliberate Knock-ons

Post by jgriffin » Thu Apr 11, 2013 6:53 pm

I was pointing out that many times the 9 has the ball slapped out of their hands at a ruck, usually a technical knock-on - no attempt to contest (e.g. rip). So what's the difference - ain't seen many yellows or penalties, usually an advantage for a scrum or often nothing at all (letting the game flow).
Last edited by jgriffin on Thu Apr 11, 2013 9:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.

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