Stuart Lancaster...................is he suitable??

[andysaint]

England is a work in progress, they ditched so much rubbish and had to start with a complete blank sheet. There have been more positives than negatives and the only way players are going to get caps and are found out if they are good enough is if he plays them. Or do we go back and request the likes to Thommo, Cueto, Corry and Dayglow out of retirement just so players with experience play? Or give players 2 caps and then ditched them if they have 1 poor game aka allen. Whilst I do agree that some selections and tactics have not been ideal, it won't come together like that over night. It takes years for players to get to the experience and number of caps needed.

[Hinckley Bob]

England to a man were outplayed by a great Welsh performance. Which club those players represent shouldnt blind objectivity.

I cannot argue with that statement.

[tigerburnie]

2nd place with Ireland and France scrapping for the wooden spoon,who'd have taken that at the start of the tournament?
One loss doesn't make them a bad team, it takes a great team to win a Grand Slam and England are not that yet. I expected us to lose in Dublin,but we showed some character. Remember we didn't win with Johnno's team untill one year before the world cup. one step at a time.
Childish football mentality yelling for heads to roll by the same people again.

[Bristol Tiger]

Lessons to be learned:
Pick your best players in their best positions not your best 15 and fit them into somewhere.

2 full backs don't work.
2 Outside centres don't work.
3 flankers don't work.

...

Good post and I think it addresses all our issues with England. Hopefully, though, this result (and possibly helped with the tour to Argentina) will give Lancaster chance to experiment and find two wingers, an inside centre that can create, a true 6, 7 and 8.

The team will learn from the experience but it needs better balance and an attacking edge to be successful in the long-term.

[jgriffin]

I've said it once and I'll say it again, then shut up. Half the current England side needs ditching, along with half the coaching team (SL, AF). Some on here have the 'work in progress mentality', no doubt you'll be saying that in two years time.....
1 We have serious problems at loose-head
2 The best 7 won't get picked
3 The four best wingers are over looked for an out of place fullback and a complete busted flush
4 a non-passing 12
5 a non-passing, non-line breaking 10
6 Plan A, Plan A. Plan A
7 The RFU

PS England could play till next week and never win with Walsh reffing anyway.

[fentiger]

The team arrived fresh from the club coaching and played well, as the tournament went on and they spent more time with the England coaches the team simply got worse.

Spot on! The longer they spend with the likes of Farrell senior et al the worse they get. Look how they mucked Floody up last year!

[tig1]

Farrell and this coaching team did not muck up Toby Flood. By his own admission he had, been injured, lost form and was so fed up he was considering quitting the international game. Here are his quotes

"The World Cup made me question whether it was all worth it," Flood told the Mail on Sunday. "It made me ask myself if it was something I really wanted to do. I was very disillusioned. I wasn't enjoying my rugby, my form dipped and, looking back, it was pretty scary. "I'd just come back from poor form and then injury and I didn't really get a look-in during the Six Nations. My passion for the game had deserted me and I was trying to rediscover the love. For the first time since before the World Cup I felt that knot in my stomach watching the Six Nations.

And that is Andy Farrell's fault ? I dont think so.

[TigerAlex]

We can disagree on why Ben played poorly, the fact is he did.

My point to the OP is why make todays performance a Saracens and Harlequins issue. Aside from Parling, every Tiger was comfortably outplayed by his opposite number.

Can you imagine the uproar if Ashton had ruined Englands two outstanding goalscoring opportunites like Manu did ? Or if Hartley had to be substituted like TY because he got on the wrong side of the referee ?

If you want to attack Lancaster or Andy Farell, then what about the forwards and scrummage coach ? How did Wig's work stand up today. Poorly.

England to a man were outplayed by a great Welsh performance. Which club those players represent shouldnt blind objectivity.

I think that in trying to sound neutral, you're overcompensating. You're right that England, with the possible exception of Parling, were outplayed across the pitch today. Wales were the better team. However, Manu was picked (in my opinion) too soon after he came back from injury and he's always going to look one dimensional when he's getting rubbish ball and he's getting nothing from the wings. I know it doesn't really excuse the missed try-scoring opportunities, but I do feel he gets unfairly maligned- we've seen that he does have quite nice hands and the ability to draw defenders and still get the pass away. To me, he looks as if he's playing like someone who isn't expecting anything from those playing inside him and doesn't trust those playing outside him. I also think Croft has been brought back too soon. When he's on form (and used properly), he's a real force, but he's only had two full games since a near catastrophic injury and it shows, and I don't think you can really blame him for that.

RE the scrums. I think today was a real case of Adam Jones conning the referee. Did you notice how before the first scrum after Vunipola came on he was pointing out to Walsh how Vunipola wasn't lined up straight? Then, after much fuss from Walsh, England eventually get penalised in spite of Jones very clearly binding on Vunipola's arm and pulling him down. It was right in front of the touch judge but Walsh had it in his head, for whatever reason, that the scrum problems were of England's making. You may say that Youngs got on the wrong side of Walsh, but nothing seemed to change when Hartley came on. Ditto Vunipola v Marler.

Ben Youngs had a poor game today, but you will surely have noticed that Danny Care was even worse when he came on. Most scrum-halves look rubbish when their pack is being bullied and their backs are next to useless.

As for Farrell, aside from his tackling (and even that, in my opinion, was not up to his normally very high standards), was very poor. England looked a far more cohesive unit once Flood and Twelvetrees came on and England's best try scoring chance was through Toby breaking the line: something Farrell hasn't done all tournament (although that little chip through the defence was nice and shows he may be capable of improving on the playmaking side of things). I will admit that I don't like Farrell (there's an element of cowardly niggling in his game that I don't like), but I don't think that all of this raving about him at his age is going to do him any good and I really hope that people don't make excuses for him as I think he needs to be able to deal with things not going all his own way all the time. I'm sure he's a humble, grounded bloke, but he's still young and so much positive press can make anyone start to get ahead of themselves.

I like Barritt. He gets stick for not being very creative, but he's a proper organiser and England lose structure when he's not on the field. He also clears up a lot of rubbish. However, as a combination with Farrell and Manu, it doesn't work. Not his fault. He's very good at what he does and shouldn't be asked to change it (improving and adding to it is a different matter), but he doesn't fit with those players (or they don't fit with him).

Goode reads the game very well and is usually in the right place at the right time, but he offers zero counter-attacking threat.

Robshaw is being played out of position. He's probably the best 6 we have (until Croft gets back to his best), but he's always going to suffer in comparison with a breakdown specialist. Another good individual who doesn't fit with the unit he plays in.

Brown deserves a chance at fullback. He's been one of our best backs, but is still not a wing and getting skinned by Cuthbert makes him look bad, though I think the blame for that lies with the coaches for insisting on playing him out of position. He might also add a counter-attacking threat from fullback.

Does that seem fair?

[TigerAlex]

Farrell and this coaching team did not muck up Toby Flood. By his own admission he had, been injured, lost form and was so fed up he was considering quitting the international game. Here are his quotes

"The World Cup made me question whether it was all worth it," Flood told the Mail on Sunday. "It made me ask myself if it was something I really wanted to do. I was very disillusioned. I wasn't enjoying my rugby, my form dipped and, looking back, it was pretty scary. "I'd just come back from poor form and then injury and I didn't really get a look-in during the Six Nations. My passion for the game had deserted me and I was trying to rediscover the love. For the first time since before the World Cup I felt that knot in my stomach watching the Six Nations.

And that is Andy Farrell's fault ? I dont think so.

I think Toby Flood has been badly mistreated by nearly every England coach he's played under. They've all seemed far quicker to drop him after a bad game than they have with other players. For example, before the World Cup, he played well throughout the 6 Nations and then had a bad game against Ireland. He was immediately relegated to the bench in favour of Wilkinson who went on to have several very poor games, but still managed to keep the starting jersey. This coaching team are merely carrying on with the trend.

[Rykard]

the coaching team has it's favourites - it's obvious. won't drop ashton so as not to upset him, but no problem dropping toby?

playing people out of position doesn't work. we looked like we went into today's game trying not to lose, rather than to win it.. there was no real attacking edge. with fazlet/barrit on the pitch we seem to really struggle breaking the line - we need to try yby/tf/36/manu this could be a very interesting option.

it almost seemed like there was no trust/selflessness - like no-one wanted to pass...

[Purebob]

Any player needs to be given the best chance to perform, and that means being played in their best position, and with a clear gameplan.

England had neither yesterday. Lancaster decided who, where and how yesteday, and in almost every case he was very wrong.

He will no doubt learn from this. Quickly I hope.

Rather than slate individual players, I'd say that only Parling emerged with any credit. Everybody else was a slight variation on "poor".

My worry is that Tigers will need to raise our boys' chins and get their confidence back FAST as we have vital HEC and prem fixtures coming up.

[BJ.]

My worry is that Tigers will need to raise our boys' chins and get their confidence back FAST as we have vital HEC and prem fixtures coming up.

They'll be OK after a couple of days back at their happy place (Oval Park, that is).

[Guinness&Nuts]

I thought Robshaw was immense for 50 mins or so, but he couldn't kep that level of performance up for 80 mins. Wood also worked his socks off. I'm afraid Croft was not at the races.
Eng just had no answer to Wales at the breakdown, but also Eng had no one who could make a dent in the Wales defence. Morgen was badley missed.
I hope this result is a wake up call for the coaches. Play players in their natural positions. Pick either Wood or Croft (Wood gets my vote) and play an out and out no 8. Billy V from Wasps should have played against Italy, then he could have been considered for Wales game with Morgen out injured.

The back three is a shambles. I hope that is the end of Goode, he was clueless in running the ball back and his game crumbled as pressure mounted. Ashton should not even make the Arg tour. As for Brown he is a decent player, but whether he is of International quality is debatable.

As for Tuilagi, he was dreadful. Butchered a certain try when knocking on and at the start of the second half decided not to pass the ball with a 3 on 1 over lap begging. Good player but lacks basics skills, when will he learn to pass!

Here are my backs for the Arg tour: -
SH: Tuff one as Youngs and Care will tour with lions.
FH: Burns / Flood
Centers: 12T / Barrit / Tompkins / Eastmond
FB: Foden (I think he should be a lion) / Brown / Tait
Wing: May / Wade / Varndell

[Hinckley Bob]

Along with the majority of postings on this thread, I would criticise some of the selections but my real disappointment is that SL has hung his hat on the Saracens game plan of field position and strong defence. He has Farrell and Barrett as fixtures and with Farrell senior on board, nothing is going to change so don't expect to be entertained watching England.

[Isambard]

Stuart Lancaster is an intelligent, thoughtful and honest bloke. He will spend hours on analysis and have many stats provided by other England staff.
At the end of the season he will review the work done, that achieved and that not achieved. I hope he will be honest enough to look at other players and to search the country for good players who can be England players.
Only experience develops leadership and we need more than Robshaw.

I found much of the 6N boring because of the repetive nature of it and the lack of attacking ploys. Defence rules at the moment. Too many indecisive scrums and rucks. Rugby is a game of finding spaces not piling up walls of bodies.