Ford to Bath and other reports

[tigerburnie]

Good grace is hardly a virtue I would associate with you.
As for my opinions, I will continue to express them on here as long as I like.
Unlike you, I don't live in splendid isolation north of the border but
actually attend games.
Unlike you I played first class rugby.
Unlike you, I mix with and constantly converse with a number of very old
friends who I played with and who also share the opinions I have expoused on this thread.

With that,the prosecution rests it's case.

[DickyP]

... Cockers is taking some flack but I remember Dean Richards did when we started losing and Barbed Wire got the same treatment. ... etc

I know some posters get upset when other forum members point out their mistakes and as a rule although I'm a nerd who hates to see grammatical and spelling errors I try to shut up. However, I just have to comment on one above as it is so amusingly appropriate to the thread:

Northeast Tiger's misspelling of flak is great because a flack is either a noun for a publicity agent or a verb to publicize! And aren't such agents at the nub of all this!

[Smudge]

Will someone please see past the rhetoric and address the argument?
We can't hold on to a potential world class stand off half who was the
European young player of the year last year.
In isolation this would be one thing. That it is an emerging pattern is another.
That we can't hold on to boys with so much potential should have alarm bells ringing. My contention is that among my many old friends in and around the club, they certainly are.

Now you may believe the spin and some press opinion that RC is a cuddly, intelligent, man motivator who is leading us forward.
I am convinced he is nothing of the kind.That he will get the sack one day I also have no doubt.
We can only hope he doesn't do too much damage along the way.

I repeat, why can't we hold on to our young stars? That is the argument.

[The Boy Dave]

Where do you get the idea that Cockers has taken a hard nosed approach

Hey, now come on!
We can exchange opinions all day long but don't deny the obvious!

[Phil B]

I like Richard Cockerill. I have said a few times that I think he is a "class act", and I base that on watching and listening to him - it's my considered view, right or wrong. In all of this, he can't win, and I hope he knows this (sure he does) - if the team wins, it's the players who get the praise, if the team loses, it's the coaches' fault - if GF leaves, it's RC's fault.

I would guess he has no problems sleeping over this kind of problem, because at the end of the day he is correct - when was the time that GF had earned the 10 shirt over Flood? It hasn't happened.

[kornboy130]

I repeat, why can't we hold on to our young stars? That is the argument.

It's been addressed over and over - Twelvetrees - behind Allen. Ford - behind Flood.

Both wanted more game time (and perhaps a pay rise) and did not feel they could oust the player in front of them.

[Bunchy]

With the obvious exceptions, there are some really good points on here.

Not wanting to say my opinion is worth more than any other regardless of my playing past etc - but I do have an insight that only a few others do and that is I am friends with a few players - they all, without exception, highly rate both coaches and are very happy in the environment that they create.

Remember the words of Julian White " the Leicester environment is not for everyone, but if it is for you, then it is the best environment in the world"

Also - think of the "big" stars who have come over and flourished - Mauger, Tuquiri...... they enjoyed the world of Tigers, Cockers and MOC....

[Smudge]

Smudge wrote:
I repeat, why can't we hold on to our young stars? That is the argument.




It's been addressed over and over - Twelvetrees - behind Allen. Ford - behind Flood.

Both wanted more game time (and perhaps a pay rise) and did not feel they could oust the player in front of them.

oh well, that's all right then!

[TigerLad]

And now Steffon Armitage is linked to Tigers

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/L ... story.html

There are also rumours that Tigers could be interested in signing Toulon's Steffon Armitage. The former London Irish openside flanker is understood to be considering a move back to England to re-ignite his international career.

But with Julian Salvi having recently signed a new extended contract, it is difficult to see where Armitage would fit in, and he would not come cheap.

If we are losing Castro we could use one of Cole, Parling or another of our England players as our marquee player and perhaps using the compensation from the Castro trade to sign Armitage. I would love to sign Armitage, yes Salvi is an excellent 7 and I wouldn't swap him for anyone in England. But cant Armitage play 6 or 8? A back row of

6.Croft/Mafi
7.Salvi/Armitage
8.Crane/Waldrom

would be excellent. Two international players in each position (yes I know Salvi isn't an international but if he played for England he'd have 50 caps by now). Armitage could be the player I think we are missing in the back row. A big explosive back rower. Waldrom is excellent at this role but I wonder whether having Armitage at 6 or 7 would help Waldrom? Also I think we will have enough to sign Armitage with the losses of Newby, Woods and Castro who will have all freed up a large amount of cap. Also lets not forget we have always had 2 quality 7's.

[PM76]

And now Steffon Armitage is linked to Tigers

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/L ... story.html

There are also rumours that Tigers could be interested in signing Toulon's Steffon Armitage. The former London Irish openside flanker is understood to be considering a move back to England to re-ignite his international career.

But with Julian Salvi having recently signed a new extended contract, it is difficult to see where Armitage would fit in, and he would not come cheap.

If we are losing Castro we could use one of Cole, Parling or another of our England players as our marquee player and perhaps using the compensation from the Castro trade to sign Armitage. I would love to sign Armitage, yes Salvi is an excellent 7 and I wouldn't swap him for anyone in England. But cant Armitage play 6 or 8? A back row of

6.Croft/Mafi
7.Salvi/Armitage
8.Crane/Waldrom

would be excellent. Two international players in each position (yes I know Salvi isn't an international but if he played for England he'd have 50 caps by now). Armitage could be the player I think we are missing in the back row. A big explosive back rower. Waldrom is excellent at this role but I wonder whether having Armitage at 6 or 7 would help Waldrom? Also I think we will have enough to sign Armitage with the losses of Newby, Woods and Castro who will have all freed up a large amount of cap. Also lets not forget we have always had 2 quality 7's.

Armitage would be great but I think it's unlikely he will be on big money at Toulon but if he does want to play internationals Tigers would be the place for him, having Salvi may put him off though . Tigers haven't been linked with Kvesic for a while but he has been linked with Bath and Glaws. Gibson or Poff would be v. good signings and perhaps are more realistic. The back row will be even stronger next year if Tigers can sign a 7 while keeping hold of two of Brett Deacon, Jooste, Thorpe and Noone. Preferably Brett as he understands the culture etc. and Noone who has impressed so far.
Options of:

6. Croft/ Mafi/ Deacon/ Noone
7. Salvi/ Gibson or Poff
8. Crane/ Waldrom/ Deacon/ Noone

would be excellent.

[Tiger_Dad]

Total !
Some people can't see a pearl, even in the biggest oyster.
Yet another young star lost to the club due to the stupidity of the oaf in charge.

Smudge - No one is doubting the potential and class of Ford and I'm sure neither is Cookers. The facts however are:
1). Toby is a better player and the current England No.1
2). George plays when Toby is not fit/ available
3). George played in 9 games last season and 8 already this season
4). George is aware of the set-up and ethos at Tigers (we actually rotate more than most) but will not guarantee a start for anyone and nor should we.
5). George and his father talk and therefore Mike will have obviously suggested/ instigated a move to Bath.
6). Tigers would like George to stay and have developed him in to the player he is
7). George will get more money
8). If his father wasn't at Bath he wouldn't be signing for them (see Gold's comments)

What's uncertain;
1). George will get more game time at Bath
2). George is more likely to become a better player at Bath (unlikely)

If he's really after a starting spot (which is total understandable) he should sign for Newcastle, Bedford or go to New Zealand for a couple of seasons

I'm not sure the advise he's currently been given is the best for him and his future. I think his father needs to take a close look at himself.

One thing is for sure, Tigers will continue without George Ford....

[Bundy]

Consider the following if you will:

"Some players become unhappy after a time. If they don't get a certain number of first-team games they want to leave; they think they deserve better. But he club won't be held to ransom, and again, I support that stance. My view is that if you are good enough, you will get in. It is perhaps the players who are not quite of the highest calibre, and who therefore struggle to make it, who end up dissatisfied and drift away elesewhere. The trouble is, some people don't realize that you have to wait a certain amount of time before a position becomes available. They are not willing to be patient; they want a first-team place immediately. The presence of that sort out of person in our club concerns me, because it puts us in an awkward situation. There are undeniably some guys we would like to keep at the club, and we feel that in the long run it would be better for them if they did stay. But often a player in this situation does not look far enough into the future. He lacks the vision of his more experienced colleagues and especially of the committee at Leicester. Some of them may scoff at what they see as old-fashioned rules, but you only have to look at the facts to see that this club has got an awful lot going for it."

- A contribution to this thread re: George Ford? No - This is Dean Richards talking about the Tigers in the 1980's when from my recollection we didn't do too bad! Food for thought?!!

[kornboy130]

Smudge wrote:
I repeat, why can't we hold on to our young stars? That is the argument.




It's been addressed over and over - Twelvetrees - behind Allen. Ford - behind Flood.

Both wanted more game time (and perhaps a pay rise) and did not feel they could oust the player in front of them.

oh well, that's all right then!

Instead of being rude why don't you tell me just what you think is so terrible about having better players than players who leave us?

[kornboy130]

Consider the following if you will:

"Some players become unhappy after a time. If they don't get a certain number of first-team games they want to leave; they think they deserve better. But he club won't be held to ransom, and again, I support that stance. My view is that if you are good enough, you will get in. It is perhaps the players who are not quite of the highest calibre, and who therefore struggle to make it, who end up dissatisfied and drift away elesewhere. The trouble is, some people don't realize that you have to wait a certain amount of time before a position becomes available. They are not willing to be patient; they want a first-team place immediately. The presence of that sort out of person in our club concerns me, because it puts us in an awkward situation. There are undeniably some guys we would like to keep at the club, and we feel that in the long run it would be better for them if they did stay. But often a player in this situation does not look far enough into the future. He lacks the vision of his more experienced colleagues and especially of the committee at Leicester. Some of them may scoff at what they see as old-fashioned rules, but you only have to look at the facts to see that this club has got an awful lot going for it."

- A contribution to this thread re: George Ford? No - This is Dean Richards talking about the Tigers in the 1980's when from my recollection we didn't do too bad! Food for thought?!!

Case dismissed.

[Will S]

If we were losing young first team players like Cole, Tom Youngs, Ben Youngs, Croft, Manu etc I would be getting worried. You are bound to lose the occasional young fringe player who thinks they will have a better shot at regular rugby in a weaker squad but that unfortunately can't be helped.

George has been exceptional at age grade but his few weaknesses (physical) are not so much of a problem at U20's and his great strength (kicking, game management, his passing game) had little equal. Unfortunately in the step up his lack of physicality is more of an issue and his strengths, whilst good at U20 level, are still behind many (kicking rate of around 64%, throwing intercepted passes etc). I still think he will be a good player but if Staunton had put in some of the performances George has this year he would have been ripped to bits.

I always feel sorry for Flood as whether he has been at Newcastle, Tigers or England everyone is always championing his competition. Flood nearly always delivers and maybe we should just be very grateful we have him in our ranks.