England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Forum to discuss everything that is Tigers related

Moderators: Rizzo, Tigerbeat, Tigers Press Office, Tigers Webmaster

youngtiger
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 654
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2012 5:09 pm

Re: England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Post by youngtiger » Mon Nov 26, 2012 1:17 am

To me, the worst part about the whole Robshaw decision situation is that, when push came to shove, Farrell Jnr didn't want to follow his captain's decision. It was not an easy one to make; it had to be made quickly and, as it worked out it was wrong. But really what this says is that, despite the "culture" and "togetherness" that we've heard all about from SLancaster, when it mattered, Farrell wasn't willing to follow his captain, in a heartbeat, on command. I'm sure Robshaw will learn from this, but for me I just don't see how you can keep a guy as captain who, despite the rhetoric, doesn't have the backing of the team to de what he says when he says it when it really counts.

G.K
Super User
Super User
Posts: 5787
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:19 am
Location: See SatNav

Re: England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Post by G.K » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:02 am

Well my dad's bigger than your dad and he's an England coach so there .. :smt019
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

physiodan
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 736
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:51 pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Post by physiodan » Mon Nov 26, 2012 10:36 am

RWA wrote:I like Robshaw, he's a decent player, leader and captain. This problem has been created by Lancaster giving players as well as Robshaw "leadership" responsibility on the field. Flood is one of them, not sure about the others although would suspect Barritt & Wood probably. We have one captain, he makes the decisions.
A leader makes a decision and players stick by it whether it is right or wrong. In 2003 there were leaders all over the park, Vickey, Thompston, Johnson, Hill Delaglio, Back, Dawson, Wilkinson, Catt, Greenwood, Robinson and Tindall but they all listend to Johnson. It seems we are trying to create this again but the problem is the players are disagreeing with their captain which makes me wonder is he the right man. Is Robshaw the best 6, 7 or 8 in English rugby? No! Is he the best fly half in English Rugby? No! so why does he persist in playing there.

Hartley or Cole for Captain! First 2 names on a team sheet when fit.

Cardiff Tig
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1182
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2011 9:25 pm

Re: England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Post by Cardiff Tig » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:16 am

physiodan wrote:
RWA wrote:I like Robshaw, he's a decent player, leader and captain. This problem has been created by Lancaster giving players as well as Robshaw "leadership" responsibility on the field. Flood is one of them, not sure about the others although would suspect Barritt & Wood probably. We have one captain, he makes the decisions.
A leader makes a decision and players stick by it whether it is right or wrong. In 2003 there were leaders all over the park, Vickey, Thompston, Johnson, Hill Delaglio, Back, Dawson, Wilkinson, Catt, Greenwood, Robinson and Tindall but they all listend to Johnson. It seems we are trying to create this again but the problem is the players are disagreeing with their captain which makes me wonder is he the right man. Is Robshaw the best 6, 7 or 8 in English rugby? No! Is he the best fly half in English Rugby? No! so why does he persist in playing there.

Hartley or Cole for Captain! First 2 names on a team sheet when fit.
The severity of the Robshaw issue depends on how many of the team questioned his call. If it was only Farrell then he's a slap over the head and possibly be dropped as a lesson (although this isn't an ideal situation when its the All Blacks up next!). If it's the team as a whole then that means a new captain is needed.

The Cole article, where he states that the right decision was to be quick whether kicking for the corner or going for goal, suggests to me that its not the whole team that questioned his call on the pitch.

Hull Fan
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1509
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 8:43 am
Location: Hull

Re: England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Post by Hull Fan » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:32 am

I would be tempted to move the captaincy to a player that when fit will always play. Following his performances in the AI and for Tigers i would give it to Geoff Parling, not because he plays for us but because i think players will follow him.
He doesn't seek the media glare, he just gets on with playing and playing well, sounds like a similar tigers 2nd row who went on to lift a world cup.
The East Yorkshire Branch
Coalville RFC - "It's in the blood"

physiodan
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 736
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:51 pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Post by physiodan » Mon Nov 26, 2012 11:56 am

Hull Fan wrote:I would be tempted to move the captaincy to a player that when fit will always play. Following his performances in the AI and for Tigers i would give it to Geoff Parling, not because he plays for us but because i think players will follow him.
He doesn't seek the media glare, he just gets on with playing and playing well, sounds like a similar tigers 2nd row who went on to lift a world cup.
First on the team sheet = captain! The contenders are Hartley when fit, Cole, Parling. I dont think any other player has a shirt nailed down other than Manu and he isn't a captain. I feel there will be a place for Foden but I always struggle to see the leadership coming from the back (yes, even though I think Murphy does a great job).

DickyP
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2815
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:14 pm
Location: Newark

Re: England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Post by DickyP » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:02 pm

I don't see Hartley having the place in the team as any form of certainty. Tom Youngs had a poor'ish day with his throwing on Saturday but he looked pretty good around the field and always got go forward unlike other members of the pack.

Hartley has had a number of game equally bad or worse both for England and Northampton. Notably he had a mare against SA in 2010 when the Boks took virtually all of his throws, and against Tigers in 2011 at WR when we did the same.
For when the One Great Scorer comes to write against your name,
He marks - not that you won or lost - but how you played the Game."

physiodan
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 736
Joined: Mon Dec 19, 2005 3:51 pm
Location: Sheffield

Re: England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Post by physiodan » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:10 pm

DickyP wrote:I don't see Hartley having the place in the team as any form of certainty. Tom Youngs had a poor'ish day with his throwing on Saturday but he looked pretty good around the field and always got go forward unlike other members of the pack.

Hartley has had a number of game equally bad or worse both for England and Northampton. Notably he had a mare against SA in 2010 when the Boks took virtually all of his throws, and against Tigers in 2011 at WR when we did the same.
If fit he would have started the AI infront of Youngs and is well infront of Paice. Youngs will battle with Hartley for a number of years but what I am poiting too is that we should be picking the form team and then the captain from those who are week in week out players.

Woods may or Croft may be there by Febuary.

G.K
Super User
Super User
Posts: 5787
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:19 am
Location: See SatNav

Re: England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Post by G.K » Mon Nov 26, 2012 4:11 pm

I agree, if Tom can sort his throwing out he could well displace pop-up Hartley permanently. Can't have a prop as Captain so it will have to be Parling.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

DickyP
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2815
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:14 pm
Location: Newark

Re: England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Post by DickyP » Mon Nov 26, 2012 6:01 pm

well, of course, on form Harley has none - he ain't been playing.
For when the One Great Scorer comes to write against your name,
He marks - not that you won or lost - but how you played the Game."

Hot_Charlie
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2824
Joined: Thu Apr 07, 2005 9:30 pm
Location: Lincoln

Re: England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Post by Hot_Charlie » Mon Nov 26, 2012 7:35 pm

youngtiger wrote:To me, the worst part about the whole Robshaw decision situation is that, when push came to shove, Farrell Jnr didn't want to follow his captain's decision.
That's the worrying thing. As Brian Moore pointed out today in his column there were just over 2 minutes left. No discussion and get it over in 30 seconds and there's time for a restart and a stab at pushing the ball up. Accept the captains immediate decision and get on with it.

Going to the corner, although the "logical" choice for (what seems like) 99% of the population, including Stuart Barnes, unless there was 79 minutes on the clock, was pointless as we'd have achieved nothing anyway.

DickyP
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2815
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:14 pm
Location: Newark

Re: England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Post by DickyP » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:13 pm

Hot_Charlie wrote:
youngtiger wrote:To me, the worst part about the whole Robshaw decision situation is that, when push came to shove, Farrell Jnr didn't want to follow his captain's decision.
That's the worrying thing. As Brian Moore pointed out today in his column there were just over 2 minutes left. No discussion and get it over in 30 seconds and there's time for a restart and a stab at pushing the ball up. Accept the captains immediate decision and get on with it.

Going to the corner, although the "logical" choice for (what seems like) 99% of the population, including Stuart Barnes, unless there was 79 minutes on the clock, was pointless as we'd have achieved nothing anyway.
If they'd taken a quick drop immediately there'd have been more than 3 minutes left as opposed to :censored: about and then restarting with lest than 2! What we got was the worst of all worlds.

Let's face it - if Farrel had just kicked to the corner whilst Owens and Robson were having a deep meaningful discussion the line-out would have happened anyway.
For when the One Great Scorer comes to write against your name,
He marks - not that you won or lost - but how you played the Game."

GEH
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 105
Joined: Tue May 01, 2007 5:51 pm
Location: Lincs

Re: England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Post by GEH » Mon Nov 26, 2012 8:43 pm

....easy to focus on one mistaken decision but of greater concern is the extent of his ability to lead on the pitch. Lancaster quotes the number of tackles etc made by Robshaw but that's a very narrow perseption of leadership.

DickyP
Super User
Super User
Posts: 2815
Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2008 8:14 pm
Location: Newark

Re: England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Post by DickyP » Tue Nov 27, 2012 12:56 pm

DickyP wrote:
Hot_Charlie wrote:
youngtiger wrote:To me, the worst part about the whole Robshaw decision situation is that, when push came to shove, Farrell Jnr didn't want to follow his captain's decision.
That's the worrying thing. As Brian Moore pointed out today in his column there were just over 2 minutes left. No discussion and get it over in 30 seconds and there's time for a restart and a stab at pushing the ball up. Accept the captains immediate decision and get on with it.

Going to the corner, although the "logical" choice for (what seems like) 99% of the population, including Stuart Barnes, unless there was 79 minutes on the clock, was pointless as we'd have achieved nothing anyway.
If they'd taken a quick drop immediately there'd have been more than 3 minutes left as opposed to :censored: about and then restarting with lest than 2! What we got was the worst of all worlds.

Let's face it - if Farrel had just kicked to the corner whilst Owens and Robson were having a deep meaningful discussion the line-out would have happened anyway.
I see political correctness has struck again and my reference to messing about with cooking pots has been replaced by :censored: merely, I suppose, as it has acquired additional meanings in the last few years. It is an expression so innocuous that I heard it used by The Bishop of Peterborough in a sermon in the cathedral some years back. It was also used by my late mother who never knowingly swore in her entire life being of Quaker origins.
For when the One Great Scorer comes to write against your name,
He marks - not that you won or lost - but how you played the Game."

G.K
Super User
Super User
Posts: 5787
Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 10:19 am
Location: See SatNav

Re: England match - Toby injured, Robshaw brain-dead.

Post by G.K » Tue Nov 27, 2012 2:02 pm

Yes the Stasi are everywhere nowadays, including this forum.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Loob19 and 2 guests