England havent progressed one jot, despite all the hyperbole.
There are so many ''International second stringers'' in the team it is really embarrassing , and shows up how weak in terms of skill and technique the Premiership really is..
Afraid to say, but the backs are nothing short of useless , Sharples cant tackle, Barritt cant do anything but tackle, Flood is not quick enough mentally or physically, both scrum halves are International flash harries, and Tuilagi is currently a one trick pony..
We just dont have any balance or definition in the backs.
As for the forwards, badly let down today by Marlers lack of technique, and a lack of enforcers in the second row..
Surely Woodward must come in overall to give us the remotest chance in 2015
The day Andrew disappears I will believe we will be on an upward path...
England....... Where to begin
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England....... Where to begin
Today's performance was an embarrassment, although not as bad as the touch judges. There are a multitude of issues in my opinion but these are the ones that stick out for me.
1. The lack of a Decent 7, Robshaw just doesn't cut it for me, he was good in the 6 nations last year and OK against SA in the summer but he just doesn't cut it for me at a top level, Tom Wood seemed to attempt more ball stealing than Robshaw today in the 30 mins he had so for me he MUST start at 7 next weekend, or better yet get a proper 7 like Armitage
2. The Lack of a decisive edge, The back 3 today were pretty poor, they just seemed to run straight at the Australian backrow or aimlessly kick the ball away, We miss Foden a lot IMO and although Goode is a good player, he and Mike Brown seemed pretty aimless today, Sharples was OK with ball in hand but seems a bit of a liability in defense and Ashton well Digby was right he is just a pretty boy, yes he may follow on the attacking players shoulder but that is it, he doesn't seem to be able to attack on his own
3. Aimless kicking, Care and Goode were the main culprits today, this cant carry on as the big 3 will punish you severely as we saw today
I could go on with probably another 4-5 points but these are problems that scream out at me especially from today's performance..... Thoughts?
1. The lack of a Decent 7, Robshaw just doesn't cut it for me, he was good in the 6 nations last year and OK against SA in the summer but he just doesn't cut it for me at a top level, Tom Wood seemed to attempt more ball stealing than Robshaw today in the 30 mins he had so for me he MUST start at 7 next weekend, or better yet get a proper 7 like Armitage
2. The Lack of a decisive edge, The back 3 today were pretty poor, they just seemed to run straight at the Australian backrow or aimlessly kick the ball away, We miss Foden a lot IMO and although Goode is a good player, he and Mike Brown seemed pretty aimless today, Sharples was OK with ball in hand but seems a bit of a liability in defense and Ashton well Digby was right he is just a pretty boy, yes he may follow on the attacking players shoulder but that is it, he doesn't seem to be able to attack on his own
3. Aimless kicking, Care and Goode were the main culprits today, this cant carry on as the big 3 will punish you severely as we saw today
I could go on with probably another 4-5 points but these are problems that scream out at me especially from today's performance..... Thoughts?
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The Boy Dave
- Gold Member
- Posts: 1787
- Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:40 pm
Re: England treading water
Pretty much agree with the above. I would also add that no-one is immune, not even Cole IMO. To many one trick ponies and flat track bullies! Breakdown ability was awful, the timing was junior standard!
Cheery chappy
Re: England treading water
Six words:
Mallett
Kirwan
'told you so!'
A nation's hopes sacrificed because Mallett didn't want Andrew near the team? And SL blamed the clubs for poor skills, and refused to pick one of the best 7s in Europe.
I for one do NOT agree that England players are second-class; it is the coaches who are.
Mallett
Kirwan
'told you so!'
A nation's hopes sacrificed because Mallett didn't want Andrew near the team? And SL blamed the clubs for poor skills, and refused to pick one of the best 7s in Europe.
I for one do NOT agree that England players are second-class; it is the coaches who are.
Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.
Re: England treading water
Added to which the decision not to kick penalties when on offer in an international match was criminal.
Can't see much changing though...
Can't see much changing though...
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The Boy Dave
- Gold Member
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- Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:40 pm
Re: England treading water
I have to say I disagree with the first part! That was pretty close to the best pack we could put out today and they were second best at home. We just don't have the players with the ALL ROUND ABILITY to cope at this level. It is coaches like Slancaster that have created this situation with their textbook knowledge and meddlesome ideas on how to improve the game. The Aussies played the game the way it has been played for over one hundred years. It may have been faster (arguable) and they may have been fitter but it was still the same game.I for one do NOT agree that England players are second-class; it is the coaches who are.
Cheery chappy
Re: England treading water
I would agree with the second part of your post, about the coaches. Support play appears to have largely died in favour of bish-bosh. The ABs played simple support rugby, the kind you should find in most u16 teams - but usually don't. Support play finds its own lines of running often.
Re the players - I would divide them into keepers (Goode, Sharples, Manu, Flood, Care/BY, Wood, Robshaw, Parling, Launchbury Cole, TY, Corbiesero, Vunipola) and losers (Ashton, Barritt, Farrell, TTTE, Palmer, Marler) plus retreads (Armitage S, Foden) and newbys (12T, JJ, Burns). Dump the losers now.
Oh and dump SL and get a good DOR in (perhaps plead with Mallett and curry favour by public execution of Andrew
and sacking of the whole RFU 57 old farts).
Re the players - I would divide them into keepers (Goode, Sharples, Manu, Flood, Care/BY, Wood, Robshaw, Parling, Launchbury Cole, TY, Corbiesero, Vunipola) and losers (Ashton, Barritt, Farrell, TTTE, Palmer, Marler) plus retreads (Armitage S, Foden) and newbys (12T, JJ, Burns). Dump the losers now.
Oh and dump SL and get a good DOR in (perhaps plead with Mallett and curry favour by public execution of Andrew
and sacking of the whole RFU 57 old farts).Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.
Re: England....... Where to begin
The lack of a decent back row was highlighted by many before the match and it proved to be the case. The Aussies game us a lesson in rucking (and flopping) This was aptly demonstrated when Wood arrived when things improved, he should have started the match and must surely start at 7 next week. Not sure where we go with Robshaw. Move him to 6 maybe?
To be mastered by an Aussie scrum was embarrassing to say the least, hopefully Corbeseiro will be back as soon as possible. 2nd row was adequate but nothing more, Palmer fades in and out of the game too much for me.
Backs were largely clueless, several poor kicks, no decent chase. Goode looked well out his depth, don't think he ran anything back at all.
It's OK to have Manu as the bish bosh merchant provided we have someone at 12 who can do something other than just tackle. That should be the last game for Barritt I'm afraid.
Sharples certainly won't cut it at the top level and Ashton is only dangerous provided someone else can open the door for him.
To be mastered by an Aussie scrum was embarrassing to say the least, hopefully Corbeseiro will be back as soon as possible. 2nd row was adequate but nothing more, Palmer fades in and out of the game too much for me.
Backs were largely clueless, several poor kicks, no decent chase. Goode looked well out his depth, don't think he ran anything back at all.
It's OK to have Manu as the bish bosh merchant provided we have someone at 12 who can do something other than just tackle. That should be the last game for Barritt I'm afraid.
Sharples certainly won't cut it at the top level and Ashton is only dangerous provided someone else can open the door for him.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.
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The Boy Dave
- Gold Member
- Posts: 1787
- Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2011 11:40 pm
Re: England....... Where to begin
S. Armitage is a fine example of the type of players we lack but a bookworm coach will always find fault's in him which is such a shame! Some will say too small, some will say too slow and others would say not fit enough. What we end up with is robotic monsters that can't play rugby very well at the top level! In the SH Armitage would be a gem!plus retreads (Armitage S
Cheery chappy
Re: England treading water
I agree that Lancaster isn't right for the job but now he has the job and the circumstances he was given it in mean he will keep it for atleast a year IMO, Mallet would have been much better.
Today was like watching Tigers ATM, close but no cigar on the big occassion. IMO Marler and Palmer struggled, the backs were poor but Barritt is probably the best 12 available ATM, he, Allen and Turner-Hall are all similar IMO and I don't think BIlly is ready. Launchberry, Vunipola and Wood impressed when they cam on and I thought Geoff had his best game in an England shirt. TTTE did well too, bar the try, he was England's top tackler but I think he's merely a stop gap until Morgan and B. Vunipola improve as SL is too stubborn to pick Easter. Armitage should be picked but won't be, Robshaw is an excellent 6 and good 7 IMO but had a poor game today. I think a couple of changes are needed for next week:
Corbisiero, Youngs, Cole
Launchberry, Parling
Wood, Waldrom, Robshaw
Care, Flood
Barritt, Manu
Sharples, Goode, Ashton
Paice, Vunipola, Wilson, Lawes, Haskell/ Morgan (impact!!!), Youngs, Burns (but will certainly be Farrell), Joseph
Today was like watching Tigers ATM, close but no cigar on the big occassion. IMO Marler and Palmer struggled, the backs were poor but Barritt is probably the best 12 available ATM, he, Allen and Turner-Hall are all similar IMO and I don't think BIlly is ready. Launchberry, Vunipola and Wood impressed when they cam on and I thought Geoff had his best game in an England shirt. TTTE did well too, bar the try, he was England's top tackler but I think he's merely a stop gap until Morgan and B. Vunipola improve as SL is too stubborn to pick Easter. Armitage should be picked but won't be, Robshaw is an excellent 6 and good 7 IMO but had a poor game today. I think a couple of changes are needed for next week:
Corbisiero, Youngs, Cole
Launchberry, Parling
Wood, Waldrom, Robshaw
Care, Flood
Barritt, Manu
Sharples, Goode, Ashton
Paice, Vunipola, Wilson, Lawes, Haskell/ Morgan (impact!!!), Youngs, Burns (but will certainly be Farrell), Joseph
Re: England....... Where to begin
I thought I read somewhere that Lancaster's objectives were to win at least 2 of the Autumn Internationals, what happens if he does not?
Re: England....... Where to begin
Oh the predictability of it all ! Aussies have a stinker against the French, we beat Fiji and it's all set up - for an Aussie win, and so it proved.
- We are not tactically good enough and probably never will be, unless we get a SH coach in. Australia clearly saw our backline coming up flat and that a "dink" over the top would cause problems. It did. Time after time.
- Goode was hailed as a hero last week, where was he this week ?
- In fact, where was anyone ? We are woefully bereft of attacking ideas, penetration or nous. As SCW said, you have to ask questions of the defence, if you ask enough, eventually something will happen.
- I love the tank to death, but why Morgan isn't playing is beyond me. He was one of the few who could make yardage and penetrate last season.
- Armitage, Saul, Seymour...all of these guys are 7s. Play one of them please.
- We are not tactically good enough and probably never will be, unless we get a SH coach in. Australia clearly saw our backline coming up flat and that a "dink" over the top would cause problems. It did. Time after time.
- Goode was hailed as a hero last week, where was he this week ?
- In fact, where was anyone ? We are woefully bereft of attacking ideas, penetration or nous. As SCW said, you have to ask questions of the defence, if you ask enough, eventually something will happen.
- I love the tank to death, but why Morgan isn't playing is beyond me. He was one of the few who could make yardage and penetrate last season.
- Armitage, Saul, Seymour...all of these guys are 7s. Play one of them please.
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chipnchase
- Gold Member
- Posts: 1227
- Joined: Sat Jul 02, 2005 10:18 am
- Location: Leicestershire, UK
Re: England....... Where to begin
Grab your pitch forks boys its time for good ol' fashioned mob rule!
Seriously listen to yourselves, we lost by six point which would have been scored had we taken the kicks rather than going for the corner. So we now want to have a pop at an England team that turned up today to play rather than the rubbish we have seen in the past? At least we are seeing an England that are starting to actually want to play with the ball in hand even if it didnt quite pay off today.
Launchbury and Vunipola made a big impact to the game as did Tom Wood coming off the bench.
Theres a good buzz around England at the moment and as long as the players stick to being honest about the way they play and learn from their mistakes then lets keep on building.
Simply shout sack Lancaster from the roof tops is a poor football mentality that sadly is creeping into the game now from arm chair fans. Keep up the good work England be judged on 2015!
ENGLAND IS ALL!
Seriously listen to yourselves, we lost by six point which would have been scored had we taken the kicks rather than going for the corner. So we now want to have a pop at an England team that turned up today to play rather than the rubbish we have seen in the past? At least we are seeing an England that are starting to actually want to play with the ball in hand even if it didnt quite pay off today.
Launchbury and Vunipola made a big impact to the game as did Tom Wood coming off the bench.
Theres a good buzz around England at the moment and as long as the players stick to being honest about the way they play and learn from their mistakes then lets keep on building.
Simply shout sack Lancaster from the roof tops is a poor football mentality that sadly is creeping into the game now from arm chair fans. Keep up the good work England be judged on 2015!
ENGLAND IS ALL!
Re: England....... Where to begin
CnC you are well and truly in cloud cuckoo land.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.
Re: England....... Where to begin
It's not just about winning at any cost or in any way. I would rather watch a team that tries and leaves it all on the pitch than one which is content just to kick for goal. That excitement and the team ethic is what draws me to watch the game.
Yes, today, England could have kicked a penalty with about 20 mins left to narrow the score. The pundits, including Greenwood were suggesting that would then have meant they could have kicked the next penalty from much the same position to level. What they apparently forgot is that there would have been a restart in between those penalties and the game dynamic would have changed. The best way to learn as a team how to win is to try as many different plays as possible, I would rather they try that now so there is a better chance of learning and improving a) before 6 n's and b) before WC 2015.
Lancaster has assembled a team of coaches which, given a chance should produce a decent team. Time alone will tell, some of us may be right and some wrong.
Yes, today, England could have kicked a penalty with about 20 mins left to narrow the score. The pundits, including Greenwood were suggesting that would then have meant they could have kicked the next penalty from much the same position to level. What they apparently forgot is that there would have been a restart in between those penalties and the game dynamic would have changed. The best way to learn as a team how to win is to try as many different plays as possible, I would rather they try that now so there is a better chance of learning and improving a) before 6 n's and b) before WC 2015.
Lancaster has assembled a team of coaches which, given a chance should produce a decent team. Time alone will tell, some of us may be right and some wrong.