So we don't have the knowledge or skill to explain exactly where our coaches are going wrong, but some of us do claim to have the knowledge and skill to be certain that RC and MOC need to be fired ?
Every supporter will have their own opinion on where we are going wrong on the pitch,be it individual players or the style of play that the team are being coached.However without 'inside' information we are unaware of any problems behind closed doors,which may be affecting our performance both coaching and playing.
I do agree that it is stupid to spout out 'sack the coach' but this happens in any sport when a team isn't playing as well they should be.I struggle to think of any coaches with a record that can compare to Cockers/MOC,but like everyone else I can think of several names who I would like to see have a bash at the 'top job'.But then I ask myself is it 'better devil you know,or better the devil you don't'?
As annoying as it sounds I think that for now change nothing.See where we are when the 6 Nations start.
I think we should have won more prem finals too, but rugby players are not automatons. Look at the All blacks, magnificent players, brilliant coaches yet chokes for two decades at the RWC. I'd love to know why we play differently and worse in finals than the season that went before them - but I suspect the coaching staff are looking at that.
Purebob wrote:Thank you for your cogent response HF :)
I think we should have won more prem finals too, but rugby players are not automatons. Look at the All blacks, magnificent players, brilliant coaches yet chokes for two decades at the RWC. I'd love to know why we play differently and worse in finals than the season that went before them - but I suspect the coaching staff are looking at that.
Champions are decided by a one off game. Tigers have got the last XX number of finals and have won only a few.
Sarries, Quins, Sale and London Irish (nearly) have raised their game and targetted it well.
Not sure why Tigers have fallen at the final hurdle so often!
Purebob wrote:Thank you for your cogent response HF :)
I think we should have won more prem finals too, but rugby players are not automatons. Look at the All blacks, magnificent players, brilliant coaches yet chokes for two decades at the RWC. I'd love to know why we play differently and worse in finals than the season that went before them - but I suspect the coaching staff are looking at that.
Champions are decided by a one off game. Tigers have got the last XX number of finals and have won only a few.
Sarries, Quins, Sale and London Irish (nearly) have raised their game and targetted it well.
Not sure why Tigers have fallen at the final hurdle so often!
There is never one single reason as to why we have fallen at the final hurdle. I believe a significant factor is just how hungry we are to win and to do so at any cost. This is an element that I feel is not to the fore as much as it used to be at Tigers and our competitors having not enjoyed the level of success that we have are ravenous to grasp any opportunity to beat us especially in a final.
Case in point albeit not in a final is the recent Sale performance against us and the last 30mins by Gloucester. Everyone wants to beat us and we must fight fire with fire by responding with interest.
Last edited by sapajo on Tue Oct 30, 2012 10:41 am, edited 1 time in total.
Without hope we are nothing, keep the faith, a Tiger for eternity
Nice try at the broken record technique Purebob, but it doesn't wash here I'm afraid.
What's wrong specifics: Recruitment - too many Mr Averages who then do not make the grade viz Grindall, Staunton, Robinson, Woods etc, or recruitment in areas we do not need i.e. how many wingers have we bought in in the last 3 years and how many do we need particularly given our style of play bish-bash-bosh up the middle? Game plan - bash it up the middle, go to ground secure the ball then release and go again, oh thats not working, we are running in to brick walls, tell you what lets work on it a bit harder! Is it any accident that on Saturday when we had a two man overlap in the backs we decide to get into an arm wrestle with their forwards? Replacements The latest casualty - What has Kitchener done wrong this season? In all the games I've seen he has been one of if not our standout player. Deacon after a serious long term injury comes back, plays 20mins one week, the next the whole game, Kitchener cannot get off the bench, despite the fact we are loosing. Bowden, Thorpe, Young are all these people injured? if so where and when and for how long, because I'm not convinced even if they were/are fit our coaching team would pick them. Our coaches would sooner pick a player who has been out injured for over a year and play the best No 8 in the country at 7 rather than pick someone knew to the club. Why did RC recruit Thorpe if he felt that way? AlternativesWe need the best, we are the Manchester United of Rugby remember? Some sugestions outside Leicester DOR Nick Mallett, Jake White, John Kirwan. If we are determined to remain incestuous Clive Woodward, Martin Johnson. Backs coach Again if we have to keep it the 'Leicester Way' Aaron Mauger as a player he had the best of all attributes, not only to play well himself but to get others around him playing well, if he could translate that into coaching he'd do for me.
Ok PureBob there are specifics with some suggestions, many of which have been aired on this forum ad-nauseum over the last couple of years.
But as others have said its upto the board to get out there find who is available and recruit the best.
The problem with the coaches, IMO, is a distinct lack of a plan B if things are going wrong on the pitch. The method of "keep at it until it comes good" for me doesn't work. As people have stated, when it clicks, my word does it click and we are unplayable. However, when it doesn't click Cockers motto is seemingly "bang and shout until it sorts itself out". I don't think cockers is doing a bad job, I just think he has stagnated in his role. O'Connors contract is up at the end of the season anyway so I'm assuming he's off. I would also assume Gibbo is about to re-enter the fray at Welford Road, but that may just be wishful thinking. IMO, we need a defence coach, yes we're very good at stopping people on our line, but at pace we either miss tackles or don't go for them. I also think, we need a breakdown coach. Unless we get Salvi back for the AI's we are going to be clueless at the breakdown. We struggled against Ospreys, we struggled against Gloucester. Simply, it's not good enough and it needs to improve.
Yet, who would we get in. Answer, I don't know. Regarding the breakdown I would suggest using Newby, but I think he wants to work his way up from the bottom so I don't think thats going to work. What about Lewis Moody? I certaintly wouldn't mind some players taking up his run at them until they fall down mentallity. Defense coach, that one is slightly harder. I would suggest Backy, but I believe he has previous with the current regime so I doubt thats a likelihood.
Regarding the breakdown I would suggest using Newby, but I think he wants to work his way up from the bottom so I don't think thats going to work. What about Lewis Moody? I certaintly wouldn't mind some players taking up his run at them until they fall down mentallity
You canno't teach what Lewis was IMO! Same with Newby! This is an area that players do because they thrive on it. That is the only way you can perform to your best. We need to recruit players who are 100% the right man for the job, not cheap options that we think we might be able to convert with coaching!
We need to recruit players who are 100% the right man for the job, not cheap options that we think we might be able to convert with coaching!
That unfortunately, is where the salary cap comes in,with eight current England internationals, plus Marcos,Castro,Mulipola and Mafi all internationals,Bubbles and Geordie ex internationals won't be cheap either.No money to go shopping to buy a winning formula,just hard graft with what you've got.
People say we are the Man U of rugby, well if you hadn't noticed Man U don't win the league every year or the European cup each year either. Maybe some are just unrealistic in the ambitions to make demands on the club that is still the most consistent in England.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
That unfortunately, is where the salary cap comes in,with eight current England internationals, plus Marcos,Castro,Mulipola and Mafi all internationals,Bubbles and Geordie ex internationals won't be cheap either.No money to go shopping to buy a winning formula,just hard graft with what you've got.
People say we are the Man U of rugby, well if you hadn't noticed Man U don't win the league every year or the European cup each year either. Maybe some are just unrealistic in the ambitions to make demands on the club that is still the most consistent in England.
All valid points but success has to be the goal, not simply going through the motions just to run a business and earn a living!
The Boy Dave wrote:
All valid points but success has to be the goal, not simply going through the motions just to run a business and earn a living!
I doubt you believe that RC is just going through the motions? A more passionate Leicester man you would be hard pressed to find.
Success is undoubtedly the goal for all concerned. What is in question is the coaching teams method of securing that success. I do think mixing things up is the right thing to do. No need to fire anyone at the moment. The incumbents have done many things right but adding a world class coach into the mix would be a good thing as RC himself admitted in discussions around Graham Henry last season.
Stephen Larkham, for example, is the attack coach at the Brumbies and I am not suggesting he is the answer of that we should try and get him but an attack coach, with some fresh ideas and the backing of the board, would be a breath of fresh air and would challenge the current conventional thinking.
Conduct the search and see what we can find. I would bet that a lot of very ambitious coaches would love the chance to come to Leicester and try and work some magic. I do wonder if the incumbents would resist the change which is why you need the board to tell them, change is going to happen, whether you want to be part of it or not is up to you.
I doubt you believe that RC is just going through the motions
I was referring to players. None specifically as people can make their own judgements but just the difference in mentality between a player like Moody and some others we see and I don't mean the wanting to win side of things. I mean the instinctive nature in which these types like Moody put their body on the line without the slightest concern for the consequences. The only thing on their mind is the ball, chasing it, winning it and keeping it.
I was referring to players. None specifically as people can make their own judgements but just the difference in mentality between a player like Moody and some others we see and I don't mean the wanting to win side of things. I mean the instinctive nature in which these types like Moody put their body on the line without the slightest concern for the consequences. The only thing on their mind is the ball, chasing it, winning it and keeping it.
You have a point there. Moody (and the players of his time) would put his life
on the line for the club and what did it get him?
His departure courtesy of the man who is our DOR, hurt him to the core as he unflinchingly states in his biography.
The rest of the squad clearly saw how he was treated so is it surprising that they don't dive in amongst the feet so easily any more?
It was made clear that despite giving everything to the team, it didn't matter a toss at the end of his career.
A great way to motivate your players. NOT.
I'm not calling for Cockers to go at this point, that will take care of itself if we don't get to Twickenham for the AP final and out of the HC Pool this season.
Improvements are needed though but the problem with most, if not all, on this forum is that we don't have the inside information in order to make the detailed analysis (LFC do not keep us well informed about injuries). Having said that the following areas need looking at:
1. Squad. Why do we recruit so many fairly average overseas players, rather than bringing more players through the academy? Years ago we had one or two but at times nowadays we resemble more a barbarian team. Is this contributing to the team being less than the sum of it's parts? Do they really buy into the Tigers ethos and go the extra 10% when up against the wall?
2. Team selection. I often don't understand this. Some players get picked week after week, others can hardly get a game. Rotation is poor, resulting in some players getting overplayed and others getting rusty. 12T last season is a case in point, Thompstone this season (unless he's injured?). We don't seem to vary the team enough depending on the opposition & situation.
3. Team skills. Often these are poor. Why do we have scrum halfs passing at head or knee level? Why does Flood often kick aimlessly downfield? Why are restarts often poor and not contested? Why is there often no runner for kicks, or kicks that are too long to chase? Often support runners are absent following a line break. Why so many stupid penalties? Why can't we score from 5 metres out anymore with our pack? Is this coaching or players?
4. Game Plan. Again this seems to be the same, regardless of the opposition and situation. Too much bish-bosh, too little variation. Flat track bullies. As has been pointed out last week we continued with a mainly slow forward game when they were two backs down, why? Subsitutions driven by the clock and not by events. Did I mention stupid penalties? Again I'm not sure if all this is down to the coaching or the players, probably a bit of both, but in what ratio?
5. Leadership & Focus. Often there is a lack of leadership on the pitch, especially amongst the pack. Alongside this Tigers seem to switch off for periods of the game. Recently (and increasinly more frequently) this has resulted in quick early tries against us and having to play catch-up. At other times we build a lead only to squander it later on. Rarely do Tigers seem to be focussed and composed for the full 80. Why is this?
Overall I think Tigers will continue to be a difficult team to beat but I don't see us amongst the top teams in Europe at the moment, our current ERC ranking of 9th is about right I would say and this is simply not good enough.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.
Smudge wrote:You have a point there. Moody (and the players of his time) would put his life
on the line for the club and what did it get him?
His departure courtesy of the man who is our DOR, hurt him to the core as he unflinchingly states in his biography.
The rest of the squad clearly saw how he was treated so is it surprising that they don't dive in amongst the feet so easily any more?
It was made clear that despite giving everything to the team, it didn't matter a toss at the end of his career.
A great way to motivate your players. NOT.
You make a very good point there, is this a symptom of how the professional game has gone and players are employees doing a job?
Hope not.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
My first post so hope it adds to the discussion. Essentially I see the problem as the Aviva Premiership - the weekly grind for many clubs is primarily focused on not losing and then facing the nightmare of relegation. Hence the nature of AP games becomes attritional. The weekly routine for players goes something like - Play Saturday, Recover Sunday, Video analysis of Saturday's game on Monday, conditioning Tuesday, Possible day off Wednesday, Analysis of next opposition and tactics on Thursday, Team run through Friday and then repeat the cycle. So unless a player is a Wilkinson in terms of mindset there is little / no time for personal skills development. I first saw Ben Youngs make his debut for England U16's in Llandovery. He is essentially the same player now just bigger and stronger but his weaknesses and strengths are at exactly the same stage of development.Compare that with someone like Aaron Crudden of New Zealand who is in the same age group or some of the Irish and Welsh players whose focus is the Heineken Cup and thus the Celtic League games are not as competetive week in week out.
So how to improve Tigers - more 1:1 coaching of individual skills, more honesty from each player to recognise they have to work on their own deficiencies. Higher standards and expectations all round
