How to improve Leicester Football Club

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tigerburnie
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by tigerburnie »

OldCoach wrote:My first post so hope it adds to the discussion. Essentially I see the problem as the Aviva Premiership - the weekly grind for many clubs is primarily focused on not losing and then facing the nightmare of relegation. Hence the nature of AP games becomes attritional. The weekly routine for players goes something like - Play Saturday, Recover Sunday, Video analysis of Saturday's game on Monday, conditioning Tuesday, Possible day off Wednesday, Analysis of next opposition and tactics on Thursday, Team run through Friday and then repeat the cycle. So unless a player is a Wilkinson in terms of mindset there is little / no time for personal skills development. I first saw Ben Youngs make his debut for England U16's in Llandovery. He is essentially the same player now just bigger and stronger but his weaknesses and strengths are at exactly the same stage of development.Compare that with someone like Aaron Crudden of New Zealand who is in the same age group or some of the Irish and Welsh players whose focus is the Heineken Cup and thus the Celtic League games are not as competetive week in week out.
So how to improve Tigers - more 1:1 coaching of individual skills, more honesty from each player to recognise they have to work on their own deficiencies. Higher standards and expectations all round
Firstly welcome an secondly a reasonable and sound statement made,pity we don't have an answer. Maybe for the good of English rugby and the premiership, it might be better if we do walk away from the Heineken Cup.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
The Boy Dave
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by The Boy Dave »

I always thought the best way to motivate a professional to do better was to have them looking over their shoulders. Cruden is a good example of getting talent right but dont't think that with persistent basic errors and he wouldn't find himself on the bench or elsewhere. Now take T. Youngs as another example. He has struggled to get the basics of his game right all season. He then has another slightly dodgy display at Gloucester but it's all OK because a week later he is likely to be playing for England and then probably walk back into his club spot on return. This wouldn't happen in New Zealand! The culture is different. It's alright to accept you need to improve but at what cost should you fail to live up to expectation? It's often easier to contribute to creating a closed group environment where your place is safe, this is the English culture!
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OldCoach
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by OldCoach »

I think something more radical is necessary for both the improvement of playing standards at the highest level of club rugby and also for the national team - so here are my proposals which should be introduced over time.
1. No more relegation from the top flight. Contentious I know but this will allow clubs to invest for the long term and also change attitude and approach. A knock on effect would be that players with ambition and skill will gravitate upwards rather than play at the second tier level in the hope that their club gets promotion.
2. Split the AP into two 8 team conferences that give 14 league games. Top 2 teams in each conference automatically qualify for HC and also play off for grand final. Teams 3 and 4 in each conference play off for positions 5 - 8 with 5 and 6 qualifying for HC (this could be extended pending outcomes of HC negotiations).Teams 5 - 8 in each competition go into reformed LV cup with welsh teams plus the top four from the second tier.
3. RFU funding based on players produced for England on a pro-rata basis and this funding to be additional to salary cap - this allows for bigger squads for clubs producing England players to then offset the loss of these players during the international windows. There could be multiplier payments based on the number of games a player plays for the red rose.
4. All DoR's report to the National Head Coach - very controversial but the only way we can develop a national style of playing. You can spot a team from NZ just by looking at the way they play, the support lines they run and how the approach the breakdown - ditto for S Africa and to a lesser extent Australia. This allows players to more easily adapt to the surroundings of the national teamand ensures those selected have the necessary skills and understanding to perform
G.K
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by G.K »

I disagree with prettty much all of that as clubs just end up being training grounds for the national team. I hardly see that as a way to improve LFC! The only point worth consideration is 3, i.e. RFU funding should reflect the number of EPS players produced.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.
Hull Fan
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by Hull Fan »

G.K wrote:I disagree with prettty much all of that as clubs just end up being training grounds for the national team. I hardly see that as a way to improve LFC! The only point worth consideration is 3, i.e. RFU funding should reflect the number of EPS players produced.
I tend to agree with you GK, there would be little entertainment as all teams would be playing the same style.
At the end of the day, for me, i'd rather have a strong Tigers team, if England are doing well at the same time all well and good but not at the expense of Leicester.

I know this will be viewed as narrow minded etc etc but i'm being honest.
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jgriffin
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by jgriffin »

Skills training should take place most mornings - since it is not usually that attritional, then it should be no problem in terms of injury or fatigue. The cycle/order of training should always be skill, strength, endurance UNLESS there is a purpose such as SH passes or place kicking under fatigue. Also, since all clubs I expect practice periodicisation, the time for strength development and recap are in late summer and Xmas, the rest of the time being speed/strength (rugby's main training area) and skill.
IMO periodicisation also implies rotation cycles short and medium term depending on the player.
What I have gleaned about the Oval Park regime suggest that that is not entirely the case; although Tigers appear to be at the forefront of individual monitoring and conditioning, they don't seem to be at the forefront of rotation and way behind the train in skill levels.
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OldCoach
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by OldCoach »

Being honest is what it's all about. So how do we square the circle? For Leicester to be successful, players have to be able to execute the skills of the game at the right standard and the right time under the intensity of AP, HC Finals or knock out stages and do this collectively and individually better than the opposition. Given the salary cap and the ongoing dependence for all AP clubs on some form of handout from the RFU there seems to be a synergy - it's hardly coincidence that the period when English clubs including Tigers were dominating the HC, England were also the primary force in international rugby and were also the innovators in all elements of the game. I genuinely believe the clubs contributing the bulk of the England team benefited from the development those players got at England level and England benefitted from the core of the team coming from two clubs.Right now the dominant forces in Northern Hemisphere rugby and the innovators tend to be the Irish Provincial teams and the Welsh National team - the clubs and countries with huge resources namely England and France have underperformed in HC and 6N, primarily because the players cannot execute the individual and collective skills under the intense pressure of HC and 6N.
So for Tigers to be the best in both AP and HC we have to operate in an environment that allows the the best to be developed. My earlier post had a first recommendation to remove relegation from the top tier. Doing this first and then after three years assessing if playing standards overall have improved raises the bar otherwise here's my question back. How happy would you be if Tigers were the dominant team in AP but the standard of rugby overall within the AP had deteriorated - in other words Tigers were the best of a poor crop?
kend
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by kend »

Skills training should take place most mornings - since it is not usually that attritional, then it should be no problem in terms of injury or fatigue. The cycle/order of training should always be skill, strength, endurance UNLESS there is a purpose such as SH passes or place kicking under fatigue. Also, since all clubs I expect practice periodicisation, the time for strength development and recap are in late summer and Xmas, the rest of the time being speed/strength (rugby's main training area) and skill.
Agreed - since they are full time employees the clubs have them all week - it's not like coaching 'old occasionals' on Tuesday and Thursday nights! What I'd add is there will be 'unit skills' built in to the programme as well, particularly if there is rotation (forced or otherwise). There are always trade-offs in training programmes.
Isambard
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by Isambard »

We are just not good enough. That means not good enough to win the key matches eg finals and heineken pool qualifying matches.

Most of us on this board have seen some great teams playing their hearts out and wanting to win and then win some more.

Much of these defeats are due to being outthought. Quins last year worked us out from previous matches and we had no answer. Likewise at Clermont and so on and so on.
Smudge
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by Smudge »

Agreed Isambard.

The other, and to my mind the biggest snag with no relegation is that you trample
on the dreams and aspirations of the Championship clubs.

I don't believe we need all these international matches which mess up the club season.
What other sport would allow their internationals to be away for 9 or 10 weeks during the season? It's ludicrous.
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MrPartridge
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by MrPartridge »

Interesting debate this one - throwing up some rather novel suggestions!

I'm afraid no relegation from the AP and 2 pools of 8 (Old Coach's suggestion) don't do it for me! We need to keep the teams at the bottom honest every year and the prospect of a 'two conference' AP fills me with dread. That said, quite a few of the suggestions appear little to do with improving Tigers. If you were to ask me for ways of enhancing the game my suggestions would be: clarify the rules of the game more clearly (particularly around the endless scrum resets that must lead to plenty of non-hardcore sports fans turning off) and axe the losing bonus point (how many times do you see teams with the ball at the end of the game away and down by 4 kicking the ball off the pitch at WR - I genuinely don't see the value in rewarding failure).

Onto improving Tigers.... I have one simple suggestion. It seems to me that Tigers have a club ethos and tradition (and none of us want to lose that)... but the focus is on forward-led rugby. The focal point of Tigers rugby isalways the pack. Now I can hear plenty of board members about to say 'pack wins the ball, without control of the ball you can't compete', etc)... which of course is true. But I genuinely believe Tigers need to look at the best sides in the world and start to realise that RU is now a truly 15-man game. It pains me to say that team like Quins and Leinster have moved to a different level. It didn't happen overnight and things went wrong along the way for them. At Tigers I feel there is 'a way of doing things' that stops Tigers backs being given more freedom.

So in a nutshell, I'd like to see a bit more caution thrown to the wind and more inventive 15 man rugby. If we lose a few close ones on the way what does it matter if the team improve in the long run?

Gloucester at the weekend was an example in point. Against 13 men we managed a penalty try and a scrappy TMO decision in the corner. Against Saracens in the AP Final in 2011 we spent the last ten minutes of the match on their try line and I don't think any of our players numbered 11-15 got within 5 metres of the ball. I think the opposition pretty much know what is coming each week...
tigerburnie
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by tigerburnie »

Smudge wrote:Agreed Isambard.

The other, and to my mind the biggest snag with no relegation is that you trample
on the dreams and aspirations of the Championship clubs.

I don't believe we need all these international matches which mess up the club season.
What other sport would allow their internationals to be away for 9 or 10 weeks during the season? It's ludicrous.
Totally agree with this, we should not be playing premiership games when internationals are being played.
I would like to see the team that comes top of the league at the end of the regular season crowned as league champions. That makes where you finish in the top four matter more than just a home playoff semi. If you must have playoffs then that can be for a different trophy,I rather liked the old John Player Cup formula where the early rounds gave smaller clubs a crack at the top clubs instead of money making autumn internationals cluttering up the fixture lists.
I think ring fencing the premiership is a recipe for mediocrity week in week out,with the odd game worth watching when a european game comes along.Just look at the rabo,few fans bother turning up every week.Without the turnstile money coming in many clubs would just fold and vanish,unless they are subsidised by the relevant rfu.I would not want the Tigers reliant on money from a source that could just vanish and leave us high and dry.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
Bill W (2)
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by Bill W (2) »

When the game went professional the RFU had the opportunity to give central contacts ( Laurence was the only player to take this up), grant franchises and ring fence. They did not. They preferred (or defaulted) to allow PRL to emerge and rule. War resulted. Randrew managed to negotiate an armistice (about the only decent thing he has ever done!)

We cannot turn the clock back. Clubs rule.

OK?

:smt016
Still keeping the faith!
tigerburnie
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by tigerburnie »

OldCoach wrote:So for Tigers to be the best in both AP and HC we have to operate in an environment that allows the the best to be developed. My earlier post had a first recommendation to remove relegation from the top tier. Doing this first and then after three years assessing if playing standards overall have improved raises the bar otherwise here's my question back. How happy would you be if Tigers were the dominant team in AP but the standard of rugby overall within the AP had deteriorated - in other words Tigers were the best of a poor crop?
Here's my question back,how happy would Tigers fans be if we followed the "Rabo " model of not bothering some weeks to try and win a game and feild a weakened team? What would we do for money if the attendances follwed suit.The Celts get a lot of money from their respective rfu's to subsidise them. Take the current situation in Wales where Cardiff and Swansea football now have far bigger gates than the two rugby franchises and the Welsh national team seem to be suffering with their players going to France.Ditto Scotland,though their future star players are mostly languishing at Sale. Do we want a mediocre financially sound, ring fenced bunch of clubs with half having little to play for?Or do we wish to see our club trying to win every game with the best team we can put out week in week out?The premiership is stronger as an league than it has ever been,ring fencing in tiers is going back to the old merit tables of the amateur past,when Tigers won little and England suffered the same.Promotion and demotion keeps the game alive,without it it would die.
"If you want entertainment, go to the theatre," says Edinburgh head coach Richard Cockerill. "Rugby players play the game to win.15/1/21.
GS
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by GS »

tigerburnie wrote:Or do we wish to see our club trying to win every game with the best team we can put out week in week out?
Yes please, when are they going to start? :smt003
Opportunities always look bigger going than coming.
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