How to improve Leicester Football Club

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Isambard
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by Isambard » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:31 pm

I am just re-reading Austin's book from 2001. The passion of the Tigers' teams of 1999, 2000, 2001 and not having lost at WR for 4 years etc. Just a different world.

Bill W (2)
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by Bill W (2) » Thu Nov 01, 2012 5:51 pm

Sadly so.

:smt003
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tigerburnie
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by tigerburnie » Thu Nov 01, 2012 7:51 pm

It is and you can't blame Cockers for all since 2001,sport is clearly cyclical,the pests had their few years of glory,even Sale managed to win something,where are they now.Newcastle are previous winners and they are relegated, Glaws had a run of finishing top of the prem and then losing the playoffs. Barf can't buy a decent run of games,the not nots are up and down like yo-yo's.Quinns and the Sinners both got relegeted,bloodgate all sorts of problems.
Then you look at Leicester,consistent always at the top,expanding the facilities.Regular fixtures against the top touring international teams that the rest of the prem are very envious of.
Still you hanker for the past,it's gone lads, Johnno and co left the us and the game for greener pastures,but still we are in with a shout,setting records last year in a Premiership that is more competative than it has ever been.
We can improve and I'm sure we will, as history shows we are that kind of well run consistent club,always at the top,always competing.
There's a bit of a party atmosphere around Bath this afternoon - but you wouldn't get that at Leicester if we finished ninth." Richard Cockerill 7/5/16

Bill W (2)
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by Bill W (2) » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:26 pm

tigerburnie wrote: Still you hanker for the past,it's gone lads, Johnno and co left the us and the game for greener pastures,but still we are in with a shout,setting records last year in a Premiership that is more competative than it has ever been.
We can improve and I'm sure we will, as history shows we are that kind of well run consistent club,always at the top,always competing.
The OP asked how we could improve. Not stay "in with a shout"! Dominate!!

That should be our ambition.

Finishing second or third best is not good enough!

:smt009 :smt009 :smt009
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tig1
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by tig1 » Thu Nov 01, 2012 9:45 pm

bluntiger wrote:[quote="chipnchase"

And we need to rotate the squad. We played Allen/Manu for the last two seasons in midfield so 36 leaves. Why not give them all gametime and rotate? Same with Ford. Why hasn't he even started one game this season is beyond me. Rotation works, it keeps players on their toes, give all of them gametime and time in the shop window, and more importantly, it keeps them fit. It has certainly worked for Cole and Castro.
My guess on Ford is that he has been going through a very significant conditioning programme for the last 4 months to bulk up and prepare himself for the rest of his career. Knowing that he would be needed from November forward, i assume it would not have been sensible to get him injured in that period ? So the plan has always been to have him fit, bulked up and ready for November I would think.

tigerburnie
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by tigerburnie » Thu Nov 01, 2012 10:33 pm

Bill W (2) wrote:
tigerburnie wrote: Still you hanker for the past,it's gone lads, Johnno and co left the us and the game for greener pastures,but still we are in with a shout,setting records last year in a Premiership that is more competative than it has ever been.
We can improve and I'm sure we will, as history shows we are that kind of well run consistent club,always at the top,always competing.
The OP asked how we could improve. Not stay "in with a shout"! Dominate!!

That should be our ambition.

Finishing second or third best is not good enough!

:smt009 :smt009 :smt009
There's a difference between ambition and expecting or even demanding to win every year,the difference between reality and cloud cuckoo land.
All the clubs have ambition,all want to beat us,most wish they could be as successfull as us, I dare say a few would like to be us,supporters have said that and still say that this season.
You really have lost a grip on reality if you think any team can win their domestic league every year and be champions of Europe as well, it just doesn't happen in the real world. Leinster are doing well in the Heineken just now,taking over from the previously invincible Munster,neither won their league,Ospreys did.The French league isn't dominated by one team either,nor the southern hemisphere, nor the World Cup. New Zealand,so called chokers,have been imperious in the Tri-nations,but will they win every year,of course they won't.Stamping your feet and demanding to come first is embarassing,the sort of thing juveniles do.
If you really have been supporting Leicester for so long, then like me you will remember joy of winning three John Player Cups in a row. Then enjoying the back to back Heineken victories,there was a barren period between them when Barf were dominant.There's been a gap again when the Pests were the thorn in our side,winning the final that would have ended Johnnos career as a player with a pot,wasn't to be.Were we unacceptable bottlers on that day? or were just beaten by a better team on the day.Exactly the same at Twickenham last year and the year before,but of course the year before that it was our turn to turn over the saffas in the dying moments of that great final.
Sport has that uncertainty,that not knowing who is going to win,if you can't handle that go watch the Harlem Globetrotters,then just maybe you might be happy.
There's a bit of a party atmosphere around Bath this afternoon - but you wouldn't get that at Leicester if we finished ninth." Richard Cockerill 7/5/16

Purebob
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by Purebob » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:01 am

Tigerburnie is correct I think.

Because Tigers have enjoyed periods of near monopoly of European rugby silverware it does not give us a right to expect the same every year. Victory in rugby games and PARTICULARLY in cup competitions is not determined solely by the winning team: many variables must be set fair.

Opposing teams must have weaknesses that are exploitable by our team; we must have a fair wind regarding injuries and player availability, and, of course our player and coaching quality must be competitive.

The salary cap has been designed to aid mid-table and bed-blocking teams at the expense of long term exceptional clubs, and this is CLEARLY working. 7 games into this season barely a penalty goal separates the top six clubs in the league. The very fabric of the premiership promotes mediocrity ( Salary cap, playoffs, games during international periods, restrictions on promotion) over exception. To consider that there may be an alchemist coach somewhere who can override every one of these inhibitors ( and others) to create a perfect storm of Tigers dominance is delusional IMO.

I note that in the very unscientific straw poll of responses to this thread's question exactly nobody offered specific reasons why RC should be fired but several intelligent ways he could IMPROVE were suggested. Also no alternative coach was offered along with the specific ways they might address failings in Tigers methods today.

Domination as a benchmark ambition, given the laws of rugby physics is not realistic IMO.

For my part I think RC has made some strange decisions: letting Horacio go, ineffective use of substitutes, change of tactics in last years final vs the previous games... but none of these warrant replacement as he gets so very much right.

The days of any one team dominating for a decade are gone now IMO, as the Nature of Rugby abhors clubs success.

G.K
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by G.K » Fri Nov 02, 2012 7:59 am

The All Blacks manage it, apart from the WC.
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

Purebob
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by Purebob » Fri Nov 02, 2012 8:12 am

"Apart from the RWC" - interesting, no ?

And the ABs are subject to a very different set of rugby physics than those affecting an English premiership club.

The Boy Dave
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by The Boy Dave » Fri Nov 02, 2012 11:44 am

The salary cap has been designed to aid mid-table and bed-blocking teams at the expense of long term exceptional clubs, and this is CLEARLY working. 7 games into this season barely a penalty goal separates the top six clubs in the league. The very fabric of the premiership promotes mediocrity ( Salary cap, playoffs, games during international periods, restrictions on promotion) over exception. To consider that there may be an alchemist coach somewhere who can override every one of these inhibitors ( and others) to create a perfect storm of Tigers dominance is delusional IMO.

I note that in the very unscientific straw poll of responses to this thread's question exactly nobody offered specific reasons why RC should be fired but several intelligent ways he could IMPROVE were suggested. Also no alternative coach was offered along with the specific ways they might address failings in Tigers methods today.

Domination as a benchmark ambition, given the laws of rugby physics is not realistic
This is probably the most well thought out piece I have seen on here recently!
Mediocraty is the word. No-one can truly identify a replacement because meediocraty is everywhere!
Of course there are always a couple of exceptions but they also operate in and around mediocrity and so are they really what we want?
Cheery chappy

Andy W
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by Andy W » Fri Nov 02, 2012 2:15 pm

I think most people are, give or take, on the same page with this one.

It is an extremely tough environment (as many previously note) in which to succeed, and yet, year in year out, Tigers are up there challenging. Good stuff. Plenty of hard work, including at the broader Club level, has gone into this.

The more interesting question is how the Board defines "success", and what they have charged Cockers with acheiving. One assumes that the aim is to be the best team in Europe, or snapping at the heals of the one that is, albeit acknowledging that this is no easy task these days, and comparisons to 10 years or so ago may not be totally fair.

The concern then is that Tigers are starting to have trouble getting out of their Heineken group, in most recent years, and have made little impression on the tournament for say 5 years, while showing no obvious signs of team progression.

Everyone has their favourite bug-bear (as we all should on such a forum!), from the arguably staid style of play, to use of substitutions, to having one of the seemingly slower sides, etc etc. However, what is not debtable is that Tigers have been underperforming (versus what the Board would expect/hope for) in Europe, with particular concern in some of the away performances against the top/French sides.

My suspicion would be that a group stage exit again this year would not go down well within the Club, and Tigers would then need a truly excellent domestic season for the current coaching structure to survive unaltered (be it new attack coach, or whatever).

It is tough to know exactly what is fair, but Leicester Tigers will always be ambitious and set high expectations, and this is as it should be. My sense would be that Welford Road isn't quite the fortress it could be, that the European disappointments are starting to become a trend, and the general style of play doesn't seem particularly cutting edge....and so the Board's expectations probably aren't QUITE being met, especially as Tigers have this increasingly unfortunate record in finals.

So, my best guess is that the pressure is on Cockers & co, and arguably that is how it should be. Head Coach at Tigers is a tough job, with nowhere to hide, but also a privilige and plenty would embrace that and love to have a crack at it.

Are our own expectations too high, and how likely is it that a change in coaching set-up improves results? Well, there are plenty of experienced and expert names who are execs and non execs on the Board, and they are paid to figure that out....

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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by tigerburnie » Fri Nov 02, 2012 5:56 pm

Well written there AndyW(you a relative of Bill by any chance or even the same person in a less confrontational form?)
Do you vote Lib/dem by any chance? as fine a piece of fence sitting as I've seen in a long while.But nicely put. :smt004
There's a bit of a party atmosphere around Bath this afternoon - but you wouldn't get that at Leicester if we finished ninth." Richard Cockerill 7/5/16

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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by Crumblies » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:07 pm

The Boy Dave wrote:[quote
... I note that in the very unscientific straw poll of responses to this thread's question exactly nobody offered specific reasons why RC should be fired but several intelligent ways he could IMPROVE were suggested. Also no alternative coach was offered along with the specific ways they might address failings in Tigers methods today.

Domination as a benchmark ambition, given the laws of rugby physics is not realistic
This is probably the most well thought out piece I have seen on here recently!
Mediocraty is the word. No-one can truly identify a replacement because meediocraty is everywhere!
Of course there are always a couple of exceptions but they also operate in and around mediocrity and so are they really what we want?[/quote]

Errm excuse me here we go again on this forum ask the question get an then interpret it how we see fit!

No alternatives offered - Many alternatives have been offered, I gave you some. As for reasons to fire someone -If you are in a job for 3 years and your weaknesses exposed, ways you can improve identified, and pointed out to you ad-nauseum over those three years and you singularly fail to implement those improvements isn't that a good enough reason to fire someone?

Bill W (2)
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by Bill W (2) » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:13 pm

Moi? Confrontational?

Andy may be another of Clive's cousins - but not as far as I am aware!

:smt023
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Purebob
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Re: How to improve Leicester Football Club

Post by Purebob » Fri Nov 02, 2012 6:56 pm

If you are in a job for 3 years and your weaknesses exposed, ways you can improve identified, and pointed out to you ad-nauseum over those three years and you singularly fail to implement those improvements isn't that a good enough reason to fire someone?
As an employer I wouldn't fore anyone unless I was sure that by losing and/or replacing that employee my business would be improved.

Also many people think Tigers played some of the best attacking rugby in ten years over the last two previous seasons, when we finished top of the try-scoring table by a long way. Many people might consider that to have been an experiment in improving Tigers.

Regarding your suggestions for improvement Crumblies :
]Recruitment - too many Mr Averages who then do not make the grade viz Grindall, Staunton, Robinson, Woods etc, or recruitment in areas we do not need i.e. how many wingers have we bought in in the last 3 years and how many do we need particularly given our style of play bish-bash-bosh up the middle?
Game plan - bash it up the middle, go to ground secure the ball then release and go again, oh thats not working, we are running in to brick walls, tell you what lets work on it a bit harder! Is it any accident that on Saturday when we had a two man overlap in the backs we decide to get into an arm wrestle with their forwards?
I do not agree we played "bish-bash-bosh up the middle" rugby in the last two seasons when we scored more backs tries than anybody else by a large margin.
I do not agree that all the wingers bought in have been poor: Horacio was amazing, Morris is at last getting the chance to prove himself, Bubbles is slow but savvy, Benjamin and Tait didn't deliberately get busted. Thompstone shows promise IMO. I am no fan of Goneva so far but others are. So as duffer wingers go we're talking Lee Robinson right? The salary cap makes it hard to spend a lot of money on many "star" players.
Replacements The latest casualty - What has Kitchener done wrong this season? In all the games I've seen he has been one of if not our standout player. Deacon after a serious long term injury comes back, plays 20mins one week, the next the whole game, Kitchener cannot get off the bench, despite the fact we are loosing. Bowden, Thorpe, Young are all these people injured? if so where and when and for how long, because I'm not convinced even if they were/are fit our coaching team would pick them. Our coaches would sooner pick a player who has been out injured for over a year and play the best No 8 in the country at 7 rather than pick someone knew to the club. Why did RC recruit Thorpe if he felt that way?
I agree with this. RC needs to rotate and replace more intelligently.
Alternatives We need the best, we are the Manchester United of Rugby remember? Some sugestions outside Leicester DOR Nick Mallett, Jake White, John Kirwan. If we are determined to remain incestuous Clive Woodward, Martin Johnson. Backs coach Again if we have to keep it the 'Leicester Way' Aaron Mauger as a player he had the best of all attributes, not only to play well himself but to get others around him playing well, if he could translate that into coaching he'd do for me.
I cannot recall any of those coaches having to manage a team with the constraints that premiership sides have now: salary cap, international callups. I think our squad would look different and our trophy cabinet would look different if RC could call upon the resources Mallett had at Stade Francais for example, or White as Boks coach ( has White got any club coaching experience btw ?). Johnno and SCW have less coaching experience than RC does.

I really appreciate your contributions here Crumblies but you have not convinced me that kicking out RC would be any more than an emotional reaction to the hurt of not winning anything since 2010.

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