England Centres

[Soggypitch]

Still the biggest problem for England bar none, who to play at 12/13.

I watched the 2nd half of Glouc v Bath yesterday and can report a v good performance by 12T, distributing well, off loading and getting crucial turnovers (more than the flankers according to Oz).

The usual suspects for the 12 shirt are Barritt, Farrell, Allen and possibly Flood (with Ford at 10!).

However Manu played 12 in the last Test v SA with Joseph outside. According to press reports this morning Joseph was the star yesterday for LI in their demolition of Saints and I suspect this is still the combination Lancaster (and me) would like to see going forward....

But Cockers is on record as saying that he sees Manu as a 13 not a 12. Certainly the classic 12 would normally expect to have more subtle handling skills and ideally a kicking game (12T, Bowden, Greenwood, Catt etc), and then I watch NZ demolish SA with little ball at times, through brilliant back play with Nonu at 12...!

If NZ can make that work why not England and Tigers?

An interesting conundrum for Lancaster as I really can't see Manu getting any experience at 12 for Tigers and surely it must be very difficult to adapt to a new position at what will be a significantly higher level?

[vinniechan]

U can have a second distributor from 12 (like Barnes or Aaron Mauger)paired with a hard running 13 (like Tana), a hard running 12 (like Jamie Roberts and Nonu) paired with a crafty 13 (like Conrad Smith or BOD). Doesn't matter which way you do it as long as u have the balance in your pairing, whatever u do the 12 must run straight and the 13 must be read the game well in defence.
For now, I think we need Barrit's game in defence from 13.

[Will S]

I really like the combination of Manu and JJ.

It will be interesting to see how Bowden and Manu gel in the midfield for Tigers. Am I right in thinking that Bowden will soon be England qualified? If so then Youngs, Ford, Bowden and Manu could be a very good unit to take us forward to the next World Cup. One of England's biggest problems is that we have got so many domestic teams that our international backs are made up from many different clubs and don't have the familiarity that other countries enjoy (e.g. Darcy and BOD for Ireland etc). Having the core backs playing together week in and week would generate the sort of understanding that would allow for a more expansive game plan.

[kpj tiger]

I would go with Manu and JJ, my backline would be

9. Youngs - Obvious first choice England no.9
10. Burns - Been playing really well and could play well at 12 too with Farrel/Ford/Flood
11. Wade - Is a truly class act, although maybe still a little raw
12. JJ - Seems to be a great player from what Ive seen
13. Manu - Obvious choice again
14. Ashton - Not really many other top class options, Does Thompestone have an outside chance?
15. Brown/May/Goode - I rate all three players, Brown is experienced, May has bags of raw talent and goode seems to be consistently great

[youngtiger]

12. JJ - Seems to be a great player from what Ive seen
13. Manu - Obvious choice again
14. Ashton - Not really many other top class options, Does Thompestone have an outside chance?
15. Brown/May/Goode - I rate all three players, Brown is experienced, May has bags of raw talent and Goode seems to be consistently great

Interesting that you've put JJ in the inside centre, as he is most definitely a 13 by trade, and his signature arcing run is not at all something you want from a 12... Was it simply to accommodate the 2 together? If so I'd think Manu, although not playing there at Tigers, is a more capable 12 candidate than Joseph.

Also, I don't really think Thompstone has even an outside chance until his form continues over a prolonged spell, and personally, having to choose, I would go with Goode at 15.

[kpj tiger]

Interesting that you've put JJ in the inside centre, as he is most definitely a 13 by trade, and his signature arcing run is not at all something you want from a 12... Was it simply to accommodate the 2 together? If so I'd think Manu, although not playing there at Tigers, is a more capable 12 candidate than Joseph.

Also, I don't really think Thompstone has even an outside chance until his form continues over a prolonged spell, and personally, having to choose, I would go with Goode at 15.

It was to accommodate them both, On the Thompstone front i was simply thinking there haven't been many English wingers performing so far this season bar Thompestone, Biggs and maybe Miller, although i know Thompestone needs to keep the form up
I would probably agree with goode as brown seems a bit on and off and May is still too raw and inexperienced

[4071]

Interesting that you've put JJ in the inside centre, as he is most definitely a 13 by trade, and his signature arcing run is not at all something you want from a 12... Was it simply to accommodate the 2 together? If so I'd think Manu, although not playing there at Tigers, is a more capable 12 candidate than Joseph.

Also, I don't really think Thompstone has even an outside chance until his form continues over a prolonged spell, and personally, having to choose, I would go with Goode at 15.

It was to accommodate them both, On the Thompstone front i was simply thinking there haven't been many English wingers performing so far this season bar Thompestone, Biggs and maybe Miller, although i know Thompestone needs to keep the form up
I would probably agree with goode as brown seems a bit on and off and May is still too raw and inexperienced

Well, Miller's a fullback and it would be quite a stretch to say that Thompstone was 'performing' when he's only started two games and was pretty quiet in one of them. There are a host of wingers in better form over the course of this season, aside from the ones you have already mentioned - the likes of Monye, Simpson-Daniel, Yarde, Jess, etc.

[jgriffin]

When you look at the players available and the time scale, then really Lancaster should be embedding a regular partnership (e.g. Manu & JJ) and picking some form backs - e.g. Goode rather than Foden - not the same old. The youngsters need international exposure, too.
For the record, I don't think AA should be anywhere near selection.

[youngtiger]

e.g. Goode rather than Foden.

Don't think there's any need to worry about him picking Foden, seeing as he's unavailable. Though you imply that Lancaster has previously been picking the "same old", despite in this instance having not picked Foden over Goode on SA tour, and in fact had played them both together.

On the wing front I think you can count on Ashton and Wade being picked, with Sharples, Monye and May probably the next three.

By the way kpj would you prefer to pick JJ at inside centre than Manu, and if so, please state your case...

[Smudge]

Wade is a great site in attacking mode but poorish in defence.
Moor than anything he is as fragile as a flower.
An impact player at the most but then again, impact players still have to defend!

[jgriffin]

e.g. Goode rather than Foden.

Don't think there's any need to worry about him picking Foden, seeing as he's unavailable. Though you imply that Lancaster has previously been picking the "same old", despite in this instance having not picked Foden over Goode on SA tour, and in fact had played them both together.

On the wing front I think you can count on Ashton and Wade being picked, with Sharples, Monye and May probably the next three.

By the way kpj would you prefer to pick JJ at inside centre than Manu, and if so, please state your case...

My point is that Goode is a better player than Foden, who was in the EPS before and above Goode. And yes, I knew Foden was injured, a fact that is totally irrelevant- I was not worrying, merely making a personal judgement about quality.
But, hey, don't let it spoil a waspish shot......

[Will S]

My point is that Goode is a better player than Foden, who was in the EPS before and above Goode. And yes, I knew Foden was injured, a fact that is totally irrelevant- I was not worrying, merely making a personal judgement about quality.
But, hey, don't let it spoil a waspish shot......

I'm surprised by this. Goode has great hands but apart from that I can't see any area where he comes close to Foden. Foden is one of the best counter attackers around, he is very reliable under the high ball and is strong in the tackle. IMHO Foden is a far better 15. Goode is a great player but I must admit I always thought he would end up as a 12 which I think would have suited him very well.

[youngtiger]

My point is that Goode is a better player than Foden, who was in the EPS before and above Goode. And yes, I knew Foden was injured, a fact that is totally irrelevant- I was not worrying, merely making a personal judgement about quality.
But, hey, don't let it spoil a waspish shot......

Oh, I do apologise, it's just...that's not what you said, you referred to him as a "youngster" and an "in form back", so unless I was to extrapolate wildly from what you said, I wouldn't have been able to infer that that's what you meant. Plus Foden being injured is hardly irrelevant when he's the player you brought up...

Personally disagree that Goode's the better player, but I'm not sure we've seen the best of Foden for some time now, and I have no arguments against Goode starting, especially without Foden's availability and probably even with it.

Oh and I'm offended by your "waspish shot" remark, I'm much more a 'sting like a bee kinda guy' tbh...

[Soggypitch]

Personally if fit I'd start with Mike Brown at FB.

I liked the experiment with Foden on the wing in SA but it looks doubtful if he will be fit.

I too think Foden is a better player than Goode, BUT he's never really transferred his Saints form to England and Goode's time will come, he certainly has class and let nobody down in SA.

[Big Dai]

Dodge and Woodward.........................I'll get me coat!