The problem at Tigers?

[Bill W (2)]

I am rarely critical of our players, individually they are to a man excellent, although how they play together at times gives cause for concern. I have been known to be critical of the coaches becuase in my book how the players play together is down to the coaches.

I am often critical of referees.

And this gives rise to my question. Is the real problem at Tigers that the coaches cannot handle the multi-dimensional aspects of todays game? They cannot cope with a large squad; they cannot coach how to adapt to referees interpretations; they cannot handle Plan A and Plan B (let alone Plan C); and other than Cole and Castro they are unable to use subs effectively.

Comments welcome.

[tigerburnie]

What do you base this on Bill? as I have posted elsewhere recently,last seasons run was only short of perfect because we fell at the last hurdle.We broke records for the run of bonus points wins,outscored all in tries and came from a dreadfull start from 2nd bottom to second top.
I wish we could win the Heineken Cup every year as well as our current domestic success,8 finals in a row,the envy of all other clubs.
The problem at Welford Road on the pitch is that the game is evolving and we stole a march on most clubs,now some clubs have caught up. Look at top clubs like Harlequins,Northampton,Bristol and now Newcastle,relegated from the top table.Wasps,Sale,Worcester struggling in lower end of the league.
JG posted a thread on perspective,maybe you should try some,early in the season for doom and gloom again.You tried to cause unrest on here last year on your personal quest to change the coaches,you were wrong last year and you might be wrong again,time will tell.
The board will be watching how the club is progressing,in the past they have taken strong discisions,sure they will again if needed.

KEEP THE FAITH , Bill

[Crumblies]

In the main Bill I support all your comments and criticisms.

I have always held the view that RC's appointment as the DOR at Tigers was the wrong decision and nothing has changed to alter that opinion.

Does it mean that I dislike Richard Cockerill as a person? absolutely not! IMHO as a player and as a coach he wears his Tigers heart on his sleeve, is totally committed to the Leicester cause and brings many qualities to the role. However as with any role, that is sometimes not enough. Where I have a problem with Richard Cockerill is in his man/player management and also his unwillingness to see alternative views and to adapt to something different when his first option isn't working.

There are many examples I could give but let's take saturday. When the team was announced I am sure I was one of many who raised an eyebrow at the typical Richard Cockerill decision Manu's injured so let's play Matt Smith at OC, Geordan Murphy's unfit let's play Scott Hammilton at full back. Remember that last year both of these players had gradually found their way onto the periphery of the squad Let's not include Dan Bowden in the replacements etc, etc. Ok So we go with that decision, as many point out on this forum he's the DOR, he see's the players at oval park etc, and lets face it who are we what do we know.

But now here's the point on Saturday it didn't take a DOR with a multitude of coaching qualifications and 15 years experience of playing top flight rugby to see that as an attacking force our midfield was totally ineffective in ideas and execution. So what did our esteemed coaches do? True to form on 50 minutes Castro is subbed for Cole (each week you can use this as a time check) similarly Stankovitch is replaced by Mullipoa, Mafi is injured so Waldrom has already been used as a replacement. But the forwards weren't the problem! We didn't get a backs replacement until the 84th minute then it was Phibbs for Harison and tne next was in the 88th minute when he subbed Thompstone for Morris, a bit harsh given thatl Morris had seen vituall no ball during the 88 minutes he was on the pitch.

Now what could our coaches have done? well how about bringing Ford on and moving Flood to 12 and Allen to 13 (where he played for England against SA in the summer) or how about moving Morris to fullback and bringing Thompstone on the wing, or how about bringing Thompstone on at OC where I beleive he played on a number of occasions for London Irish. Just something, anything that addresses the actual problem even if it admits that maybe just maybe our coaches initially got it wrong, that plan A isn't working so let's not stick with plan A only harder, let try something different!

[tig1]

I think that Tigers are a wonderful club, with an inherent nature towards a pragmatic and conservative style of play. It means that the club is at the top end of the game year after year and avoids the bleak years experienced by the Iikes of Saints, Harlequins, Wasps and Bath. The slight trade off is that when it comes to the crunch, that pragmatic and conservative nature comes up short against teams that are willing to try something a little different. I would think the premiership final vs Harlequins would be the most recent example of that.

In modern sport it is very difficult to win major events with a conservative approach. Of course it happens, Chelsea last year did it. But generally speaking top sport is now dominated by those teams and individuals with an aggressive and attacking mentallity.

Ps. I don't think AA played 13 for England vs Sa ? It was against a midweek team of lower division players I think.

[Darc Tiger]

I echo what tigerburnie said. This squad is more than capable of being one of the best and playing an effective, attractive brand of rugby. But I also have gripes about the in-game tactics/man-management as highlighted by Crumblies. Sometimes, the team needs to switch it up, and too often they just don't. Too rigid a structure?

[norfolkexpat]

All the five posts have very relevant points-and we all sing from the same hymn sheet..
We want Tigers to be No 1 in Europe and England
And barring a couple of players we certainly have the Squad to do it..
But are the Coaches up to it ???
That is the 64000 $ question..
I personally believe--if you paired RC with Austin Healey , then this would address the imbalance somewhat.....
Healey is by far the most enlightened and innovative Commentator on TV
Last week--he actually highlighted--ten minutes before it happened--how Quims would score a try .. !!!
Inch :censored: perfect---unfortunately...
MOC isnt--no offence please--in the same ball park as AH.
And Tigers deserve the best, considering our unbelievabl;e heritage and supporters size and loyalty.
But I have to say--and it is mooted elsewhere--maybe in the future Tigers might entertain a possibility of two dual combos---Richards and Wells OR Johnson and Healey--by the way, best of friends...
Food for thought.

[Bill W (2)]

I echo what tigerburnie said. This squad is more than capable of being one of the best and playing an effective, attractive brand of rugby. But I also have gripes about the in-game tactics/man-management as highlighted by Crumblies. Sometimes, the team needs to switch it up, and too often they just don't. Too rigid a structure?

Concur. So what do the coaches need to change?

[Bill W (2)]

All the five posts have very relevant points-and we all sing from the same hymn sheet..
We want Tigers to be No 1 in Europe and England
And barring a couple of players we certainly have the Squad to do it..
But are the Coaches up to it ???
That is the 64000 $ question..
I personally believe--if you paired RC with Austin Healey , then this would address the imbalance somewhat.....
Healey is by far the most enlightened and innovative Commentator on TV
Last week--he actually highlighted--ten minutes before it happened--how Quims would score a try .. !!!
Inch :censored: perfect---unfortunately...
MOC isnt--no offence please--in the same ball park as AH.
And Tigers deserve the best, considering our unbelievabl;e heritage and supporters size and loyalty.
But I have to say--and it is mooted elsewhere--maybe in the future Tigers might entertain a possibility of two dual combos---Richards and Wells OR Johnson and Healey--by the way, best of friends...
Food for thought.

You are suggesting we need to change the coaches?

[tigerburnie]

Some fair comments and points raised,clearly we can be better,but back to the title of the thread,what problem are we referring to?
Is it we lost a game to Quinns at home?
Is it we are not scoring enough tries?
What are we basing our debate on? Bill has a perceived problem with the Tigers performance,what is it?
Is it that the coaches/DOR is not selecting the team he(and others)want?.
I suspect that the last is the main topic in this type of debate,we have our favourites and feel wronged if we don't see our desired player(Billy last year, Ford this year).

[norfolkexpat]

I know we scored dozens of tries last year--however they didnt gel in the matches against the serious teams.
Why ? IMHO because their Coaches were way too clever for ours and secondly because we never allow the ''subs'' enough game time to change a losing formula..
Its totally correct-the Props after 52 mins the back row after 63--I exaggerate but you get the picture-and the backs after 75 mins ... !!!

[Bill W (2)]

Bill has a perceived problem with the Tigers performance,what is it?
).

Despite an excellent squad insufficienct silverware!!

And very able players underutilised.

One dimensional game plans, no fall back contingency plans.

Poor substitutional strategy.

Else all OK!

[tigerburnie]

I know we scored dozens of tries last year--however they didnt gel in the matches against the serious teams.
Why ? IMHO because their Coaches were way too clever for ours and secondly because we never allow the ''subs'' enough game time to change a losing formula..
Its totally correct-the Props after 52 mins the back row after 63--I exaggerate but you get the picture-and the backs after 75 mins ... !!!

If you look at last seasons fixtures here http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/in ... =2011-2012

you'll see we beat Northampton,Saracens,Quinns,Bath and Irish away in the run up to the final. We scored 70 tries, double what Saracens scored and did not concede many either , most early in the season.
So again I say what is the problem, will none of you own up to the fact that you just don't like the coaches.

[norfolkexpat]

Always room for improvement !!

[Darc Tiger]

I know we scored dozens of tries last year--however they didnt gel in the matches against the serious teams.
Why ? IMHO because their Coaches were way too clever for ours and secondly because we never allow the ''subs'' enough game time to change a losing formula..
Its totally correct-the Props after 52 mins the back row after 63--I exaggerate but you get the picture-and the backs after 75 mins ... !!!

If you look at last seasons fixtures here http://www.leicestertigers.com/rugby/in ... =2011-2012

you'll see we beat Northampton,Saracens,Quinns,Bath and Irish away in the run up to the final. We scored 70 tries, double what Saracens scored and did not concede many either , most early in the season.
So again I say what is the problem, will none of you own up to the fact that you just don't like the coaches.

Which is why I think the squad is more than capable, but too often we have fallen in the big games, with similar patterns of defeat.

[Isambard]

We don't play well enough to win big games.

Last Saturday's game was very poor in ideas, decision making and leadership.

all imho of course. It was the same when we played in France and when we playedi n Dublin the year before. We were stuffed both times. In Belfast too as I recall but I didnt go to that one.