Dazzling new European tournament?

[Brianf]

Hi, I know there is a thread going on about the new BT deal, but I thought this warrents a new thread on its own...a brand new European tournament, meaning the demise of the Heineken Cup...any thoughts?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyu ... ament.html

[kingol22]

Will be a shame to see the HC go as it has been a brilliant competition over the years. I hope they get this new Dazzling tournament right.

[TigerLad]

The demise of the Heineken cup was inevitable when the Celtic league was set up. Mr Watson said that he hopes to have all the best teams so hopefully that means we will have a champions league type competition with all the best teams in.

[Bill W (2)]

Lest we forget. A European competition is not just about a top tier. It is about a second (and third?) tier. Our Celtic Cousins were never able to buy into this - and still cannot. But it is IMHO essential for the on going development of the game. Which is supposedly what the IRB et al want. Why should the (lower ranked) Irish teams not face competition? And Outer Mongolia be given the opportunity for advancement?

Again IMHO relegation and promotion on merit are key elements to deveolping the game.

[yellow_balaclava_hunter]

Lest we forget. A European competition is not just about a top tier. It is about a second (and third?) tier. Our Celtic Cousins were never able to buy into this - and still cannot. But it is IMHO essential for the on going development of the game. Which is supposedly what the IRB et al want. Why should the (lower ranked) Irish teams not face competition? And Outer Mongolia be given the opportunity for advancement?

Again IMHO relegation and promotion on merit are key elements to deveolping the game.

Exactly and what a lot of people fail to comprehend is that non qualification for the Heineken Cup is a form of relegation which means that the English and French clubs cannot rest players in their leagues to favour the Heineken because they risk ending up out of Europe next season. The celtic lot seem to be unable to understand this.

The celtic lot also fail to understand that a viable second and third tier European cup competition would allow non six nations countries to enter teams and have a chance to improve their game rather than being stuck in limbo. I have a feeling that the Scots do not want clubs from non six nations countries playing their sides for fear that they may get embarrassed.

[Bill W (2)]

[biffer]

Lest we forget. A European competition is not just about a top tier. It is about a second (and third?) tier. Our Celtic Cousins were never able to buy into this - and still cannot. But it is IMHO essential for the on going development of the game. Which is supposedly what the IRB et al want. Why should the (lower ranked) Irish teams not face competition? And Outer Mongolia be given the opportunity for advancement?

Again IMHO relegation and promotion on merit are key elements to deveolping the game.

Exactly and what a lot of people fail to comprehend is that non qualification for the Heineken Cup is a form of relegation which means that the English and French clubs cannot rest players in their leagues to favour the Heineken because they risk ending up out of Europe next season. The celtic lot seem to be unable to understand this.

The celtic lot also fail to understand that a viable second and third tier European cup competition would allow non six nations countries to enter teams and have a chance to improve their game rather than being stuck in limbo. I have a feeling that the Scots do not want clubs from non six nations countries playing their sides for fear that they may get embarrassed.

...and the Anglo lot fail to appreciate that the Scots and the Welsh view the British and Irish Cup as a stepping stone to entering the club sides into the Amlin. There is a second tier competition - The Amlin. There is also a third tier competition, the B&I cup, which I would hope can be expanded, possibly in a regional form (B&I section and a continental section including french D2, plus Italian, Georgian, Spanish, Romanian clubs), possibly not.

The arrogance of this 'everyone's got to do it the way we say, because we're getting beaten so it must be unfair' approach is astonishing. But as with the last time in 99, because the English clubs don't get their way the toys go out of the pram. Remind me how that worked out, someone? (I already mentioned this once, but strangely enough, that national embarrassment for English rugby is being ignored).

[Smudge]

Ulster won it that year, (for the only time).

Full marks to you Biffo for standing up for the Irish as you always do but
even the most one eyed Celt can now see that the way it is presently structured
is unfair to the English and French Clubs.
If I thought it was sour grapes by the Clubs I wouldn't condone that view but
it is clearly not the case.

[yellow_balaclava_hunter]

Lest we forget. A European competition is not just about a top tier. It is about a second (and third?) tier. Our Celtic Cousins were never able to buy into this - and still cannot. But it is IMHO essential for the on going development of the game. Which is supposedly what the IRB et al want. Why should the (lower ranked) Irish teams not face competition? And Outer Mongolia be given the opportunity for advancement?

Again IMHO relegation and promotion on merit are key elements to deveolping the game.

Exactly and what a lot of people fail to comprehend is that non qualification for the Heineken Cup is a form of relegation which means that the English and French clubs cannot rest players in their leagues to favour the Heineken because they risk ending up out of Europe next season. The celtic lot seem to be unable to understand this.

The celtic lot also fail to understand that a viable second and third tier European cup competition would allow non six nations countries to enter teams and have a chance to improve their game rather than being stuck in limbo. I have a feeling that the Scots do not want clubs from non six nations countries playing their sides for fear that they may get embarrassed.

...and the Anglo lot fail to appreciate that the Scots and the Welsh view the British and Irish Cup as a stepping stone to entering the club sides into the Amlin. There is a second tier competition - The Amlin. There is also a third tier competition, the B&I cup, which I would hope can be expanded, possibly in a regional form (B&I section and a continental section including french D2, plus Italian, Georgian, Spanish, Romanian clubs), possibly not.

The arrogance of this 'everyone's got to do it the way we say, because we're getting beaten so it must be unfair' approach is astonishing. But as with the last time in 99, because the English clubs don't get their way the toys go out of the pram. Remind me how that worked out, someone? (I already mentioned this once, but strangely enough, that national embarrassment for English rugby is being ignored).

The Celtic view of the British and Irish cup argument would sound believable if it didn't have sides called 'Munster, leinster, Llanelli and Ulster' in it.

Please remind me of how many sides from the celtic league played in the 2nd tier european competition last season? Was it one?

There is nothing arrogant about wanting a level playing field and having teams qualify on merit.

There is something very arrogant of nations to expect automatic qualification and then claim that countries that have to qualify on merit are 'sore losers' for wanting a level playing field.

[The Boy Dave]

The arrogance of this 'everyone's got to do it the way we say, because we're getting beaten so it must be unfair' approach is astonishing.

I don't recall the English clubs attempting to dictate terms at all but simply stating that the current terms are unsuitable (for them) and gave notice to withdraw, nothing arrogant in that IMO. You must remember the top English clubs are also trying to develop on and off the pitch and to continue to participate in a competition format that hurts their development is no good in the long term. The English want to fill their stadiums and provide high level competitions. This canno't be achieved if the clubs and the supporters don't believe in what they are paying for. To keep the H.C as it currently is would leave the English in a position where they will struggle to go forward. We needed to level the playing field for everyone and we could then believe that we can win but also be gracious in defeat. Fans would get value for their hard earned money and not feel slightly cheated into feeling that they are no more than a charity fund. It's about competition and all things being equal. The best versus the best all competing under the same pressure, same rules and equal chance to succeed.

[mightymouse]

I'm not sure why any embarrasment would be caused by playing against 2nd teir nations in club competitions, on Scotlands behalf - Edinburgh got to the quarter finals of the HC last season - I think some English clubs not reaching that stage might be the ones fearing embarrasment, hence stitching up a competition on their terms only

[biffer]

The Celtic view of the British and Irish cup argument would sound believable if it didn't have sides called 'Munster, leinster, Llanelli and Ulster' in it.

Please remind me of how many sides from the celtic league played in the 2nd tier european competition last season? Was it one?

There is nothing arrogant about wanting a level playing field and having teams qualify on merit.

There is something very arrogant of nations to expect automatic qualification and then claim that countries that have to qualify on merit are 'sore losers' for wanting a level playing field.

I fully agree about the Irish sides in the B&I cup. It would make it so much better if the Irish clubs were in it in the same way as the Scots and Welsh.

In regard to qualifying on merit, I've suggested before that the last 6 spots in the competition should be decided by a playoffs. If it's qualification on merit, let's qualify on the pitch, not by changing who gets it automatically.

Edit - by that I mean take one spot away from each nation's current allocation and let twelve teams be drawn to play against each other for those 6 spots.

[drc_007]

In regard to qualifying on merit, I've suggested before that the last 6 spots in the competition should be decided by a playoffs. If it's qualification on merit, let's qualify on the pitch, not by changing who gets it automatically.

Edit - by that I mean take one spot away from each nation's current allocation and let twelve teams be drawn to play against each other for those 6 spots.

I can see why you suggest it but there are just too many matches already, the French season already overlaps with the Lions tour.

[biffer]

In regard to qualifying on merit, I've suggested before that the last 6 spots in the competition should be decided by a playoffs. If it's qualification on merit, let's qualify on the pitch, not by changing who gets it automatically.

Edit - by that I mean take one spot away from each nation's current allocation and let twelve teams be drawn to play against each other for those 6 spots.

I can see why you suggest it but there are just too many matches already, the French season already overlaps with the Lions tour.

If it isn't done on the pitch, there will always be someone complaining that the allocation is unfair. Happens to be the English at the moment.

[yellow_balaclava_hunter]

The Celtic view of the British and Irish cup argument would sound believable if it didn't have sides called 'Munster, leinster, Llanelli and Ulster' in it.

Please remind me of how many sides from the celtic league played in the 2nd tier european competition last season? Was it one?

There is nothing arrogant about wanting a level playing field and having teams qualify on merit.

There is something very arrogant of nations to expect automatic qualification and then claim that countries that have to qualify on merit are 'sore losers' for wanting a level playing field.

I fully agree about the Irish sides in the B&I cup. It would make it so much better if the Irish clubs were in it in the same way as the Scots and Welsh.

In regard to qualifying on merit, I've suggested before that the last 6 spots in the competition should be decided by a playoffs. If it's qualification on merit, let's qualify on the pitch, not by changing who gets it automatically.

Edit - by that I mean take one spot away from each nation's current allocation and let twelve teams be drawn to play against each other for those 6 spots.

I think that there are too many teams in the top tier competition.

I am proposing a reduction in both the teams from the celtic league and the English and French leagues that qualify with four from each league, last years winners, the tier two winner plus two other teams. That would be more of a meritocracy and would allow all of the leagues to be competitive.