Dazzling new European tournament?

[tigerburnie]

Whilst the debate is admirable, you are missing one vital point, PRL have entered into a contract and that means the end of English clubs in the Heineken after 2014.
The only thing that will now change that is if ERC accept the BT television contract for English clubs.Now if they have signed an exclusive deal with Sky for all Heineken games,then the Heineken is no longer an issue with English clubs.So irrespective of how other nations feel about this deal,it is done and now we move on. I am sure the Heineken will continue without English clubs as it would seem the French are getting cold feet about actually leaving the competition and are still trying to negotiate something.
I can see English clubs talking to teams outside of the 6nations areas to set up something, I would not be surprised to see trips to the southern hemisphere and clubs coming to the Premiership clubs as well. The Crusaders at Welford Road ,Tigers at the Brumbies,why not.

[Bill W (2)]

1. PRL and the French Clubs have given notice that they will not be participating in ERC Competition post 2014.

2. PRL (as authorised by RFU) have signed a TV contract for non ERC matches.

3. ERC has signed a TV contract for ERC matches.

Why does anyone have a problem with this? Straightforward isn't it?

[yellow_balaclava_hunter]

It's too difficult for the Welsh to fathom.

As for the RFU. I shan't bother commenting.

[biffer]

The Celtic view of the British and Irish cup argument would sound believable if it didn't have sides called 'Munster, leinster, Llanelli and Ulster' in it.

Please remind me of how many sides from the celtic league played in the 2nd tier european competition last season? Was it one?

There is nothing arrogant about wanting a level playing field and having teams qualify on merit.

There is something very arrogant of nations to expect automatic qualification and then claim that countries that have to qualify on merit are 'sore losers' for wanting a level playing field.

I fully agree about the Irish sides in the B&I cup. It would make it so much better if the Irish clubs were in it in the same way as the Scots and Welsh.

In regard to qualifying on merit, I've suggested before that the last 6 spots in the competition should be decided by a playoffs. If it's qualification on merit, let's qualify on the pitch, not by changing who gets it automatically.

Edit - by that I mean take one spot away from each nation's current allocation and let twelve teams be drawn to play against each other for those 6 spots.

I think that there are too many teams in the top tier competition.

I am proposing a reduction in both the teams from the celtic league and the English and French leagues that qualify with four from each league, last years winners, the tier two winner plus two other teams. That would be more of a meritocracy and would allow all of the leagues to be competitive.

But that's the problem. You're proposing a competition based on the leagues. Any competiton is going to be based on the unions, not the leagues. If you can't get your head round that then you really don't understand the straucture of rugby beyond your own, rather parochial sphere.

And don't try and get out of this by doing the 'read my post properly' thing again, it's a childish cop out which just suggests you're not prepared to argue your point in a sensible way.

[Crumblies]

biffer wrote: But that's the problem. You're proposing a competition based on the leagues. Any competiton is going to be based on the unions, not the leagues. If you can't get your head round that then you really don't understand the straucture of rugby beyond your own, rather parochial sphere.

Why because you say so. This is at the hub of the problem. As far as the English and the French are concered the European Cometition is very much based on our leagues, for a start that is how we qualify. for the Irish it is very much based on the IRFUs control of provincial Rugby.

If you don't undrstand that then I suggest it's you that doesn't understand Rugby beyond your own, rather parochial sphere!

[Crumblies]

biffer wrote: And don't try and get out of this by doing the 'read my post properly' thing again, it's a childish cop out which just suggests you're not prepared to argue your point in a sensible way.

Do you mean in the same sensible way that you wrote on another thread:

Why would the other nations be interested in that? Just beacause it's the English and we should all respect and follow them because em, uh, oh, well, they're the English?

[jonlin]

Until the context of the full contract the PRL has signed is out in the public domain,know one has any idea what is in. It could read BT vision have the rights to all European games EXCLUDING the Heineken cup

[tigerburnie]

Until the context of the full contract the PRL has signed is out in the public domain,know one has any idea what is in. It could read BT vision have the rights to all European games EXCLUDING the Heineken cup

I think the fact that BT has announced it intends to create a new competition sort of answers that question,as far BT are saying , post 2014 PRL will not be in the Heineken Cup. The reason being that the ERC have already signed an exclusive deal for all the Heinken games post 2014.
No room to manouvere by the looks of things.

[stevetelcom2000]

As an ex BT employee ( I left to set a Company that finds a home for disgruntled BT customers and still make a nice residual income from it) Am I surprised that they have done a deal to be involved with a 'Dazzling New European Tournament' That at present only has 12 English clubs in it?
No not at all.
Some salesman that Mike McCarfferty
Seems the French are not too pleased with the PRL going out on a limb announcing this 'deal'.
At the moment this new Dazzling Competition will be 'The 'Sponsors name to be inserted' The ‘12 Top Teams in England’ European Cup.
I'm sure the sponsors will be queuing up for that
More likely that BT will be asking why their man bought them a pig in a poke. Fair F***s to them if they pull it of, my instincts are there is a strong possibility they won't.
The RFU could end up resting some power back from a wounded PRL, and Peter Wheeler may end up isolated. His having feet in too many camps eventually tripping him up.
If I didn’t care so passionately about Rugby I would find this whole episode intriguing. But as I do, it is extremely disappointing.

[tigerburnie]

I too have had close association with BT in the past Steve,but as an alternative to Sky, I'm all for it.Will it all end in tears of joy..........time will tell.
I'm sure the PRL hand was forced as they had to sign something, otherwise the deal reverts back to the RFU to negotiate for the clubs and that would be worse for the clubs.
Money is the root of all evil,we know that,but try getting by on bartering,it doesn't work,ask anyone who supports a Championship team.

[MurphysLaw]

Time will tell, but I'm not sure if the deal will be seen as 'a pig in a poke'. To go along with Premier League football, they will have the rights to the Aviva. The coverage of English clubs in non-ERC european games after 2014, whatever that might entail, is only part of the bigger picture as far as BT is concerned.
It does seem bizarre signing up to cover the English clubs in a future competition that has yet to be devised. However, as others have said, we do not know the contract details, and I would be surprised if there is not a huge amount of conditionality and caveats.

[yellow_balaclava_hunter]

Time will tell, but I'm not sure if the deal will be seen as 'a pig in a poke'. To go along with Premier League football, they will have the rights to the Aviva. The coverage of English clubs in non-ERC european games after 2014, whatever that might entail, is only part of the bigger picture as far as BT is concerned.
It does seem bizarre signing up to cover the English clubs in a future competition that has yet to be devised. However, as others have said, we do not know the contract details, and I would be surprised if there is not a huge amount of conditionality and caveats.

I think the French position now holds the key to this.

The question is have the English acted without getting prior agreement from the French, have the French stabbed the English in the back or are the French also going to drop a bombshell soon?

For the English I can't see them losing out either way. The English are currently losing out massively with the current European setup. With an Anglo-French competition the English benefit, going it alone again they don't really lose much that hasn't been recouped from the BT deal and if the others agree to a new structure with the English involved then everyone is better off.

[tigerburnie]

There is no doubt that the current structure has allowed the Irish and to a lesser degree the Scots to benefit on and off the pitch. I doubt they will be keen to see any change what so ever. The Welsh however seem to be in decline,the regional structure has clearly not worked,their football teams are getting bigger crowds. The Italians have benefitted from being in a league that also allows them access to the Heineken crowds,one of the few genuine benefits.
Can I see a way out of the impasse? to honest it does seem that all sides are deeply entrenched. As an ex shop steward who saw this sort of situation regularily, we sort of need an ACAS type body to part the waring factions and the IRB are not neutral, so I think England may be out on their own after 2014.
Will this matter,probably not,but I think we will all miss the Heineken,even when we know it is not a fair competition.I was at Murrayfield when we lost to Leinster, the difference between the two teams was this.Tigers played in the Premiership final the week before and Leinster had the week off. Tigers players were worn out,would we have won if we had had a rest too, we will never know,but the fatigue in the Tigers players was there for all to see.It was not even contest.

[yellow_balaclava_hunter]

People seem to forget that it's not just the final that the celtic teams can rest their players before, it is also group matches and knock out games. The results of whole tournaments would be different if the celtic teams had to qualify properly.

[TomWeston]

The RFU could end up resting some power back from a wounded PRL, and Peter Wheeler may end up isolated. His having feet in too many camps eventually tripping him up.
If I didn’t care so passionately about Rugby I would find this whole episode intriguing. But as I do, it is extremely disappointing.

The ardent Tigers fan Barnes is, in his sly manner, blaming the Tigers for the current upset in his Times column today. Just the Tigers, not the whole 12 clubs, mind.

We shouldn't lose sight of the fact that the HK is first and foremost a club competition, and as Peter Wheeler told me after the 2005 final, the clubs should benefit most from it, not the rugby unions. It's clearly been a long road.