Heineken Cup - The future

[Tom Tom]

This is on todays AOL sport site.
Can't find a recent topic covering this on here

Clubs in England and France have served notice of their intention to quit the Heineken Cup and organise a rival competition as they believe the current format is weighted too heavily in favour of the Celtic nations.


Leinster and Munster have won five of the last seven Heineken Cups between them, with Leinster winning three of the last four, and their rivals in England and France believe that is partly a result of a qualification system that allows them to rest their players during the RaboDirect Pro12 season.

Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty told the Guardian: "Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the Pro12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification.

"The clubs in England and France have served two years' notice that we intend to pull out of Europe because there needs to be a level playing field.

"So far, the response from the other countries has been slow, even though we are not sabre-rattling. We have not been locked in talks and there is no meeting about the issue until the end of next month.

"Our view is that the qualification process needs to be changed so that it is entirely merit-based - the top teams in all three leagues as well as the winners of the Heineken Cup and the Amlin Challenge Cup should make up 20 sides taking part."

The English and French sides believe no more than six Pro12 teams should qualify, although that would put at risk the involvement of Scottish and Italian sides who currently qualify automatically.

"I think those countries have effectively made that decision by forming the Pro12," McCafferty added.

"It is like me saying that the Premiership has to provide a qualifier from the south-west. It cannot be good for the competition that you do not have the best sides qualifying.

"Aironi were disbanded at the end of the last season and the newly-formed Zebres go straight into the Heineken Cup."

McCafferty said he was not prepared to do anything to damage the Aviva Premiership in order to change the qualification system for the Heineken Cup, as the Premiership accounts for 80 per cent of revenues compared to 20 per cent from Europe.

"ERC should know that we are serious and while the issue has to be resolved, everyone has to realise we cannot carry on as we are," he said.

"If it is not, we would go to an Anglo-French competition and if others wanted to join us, fair enough."

ERC has planned talks for September on the issue.

"We have held meetings with all our shareholders and asked them to draw up proposals which will be considered at next month's meeting," said a spokesman.

"Notice was served by the French and English clubs and the French Rugby Federation at the beginning of June and it was agreed at a board meeting a few days afterwards that we would have a workshop in September after holding briefings with everyone.

"We do not want to enter a war of words with Premiership Rugby, but we have been working away in the background and we are in the second phase of the consultation process."

[fleabane]

There is a thread, but it goes back some time.

Wheelbrace has been wandering around France, come to your own conclusions . . . .

[fleabane]

Interestingly it's on Sky Sports front page too this morning. Obviously MMcC is starting to ramp up the publicity, and the pressure!

[Ze Stade Fan]

Strangely enough, as the topic is hotly debated in England, there is no echo of it this side of the Channel...

Perhaps its because the pint is cheaper in Dublin?

[stevetelcom2000]

[quote="Tom Tom"]

Leinster and Munster have won five of the last seven Heineken Cups between them, with Leinster winning three of the last four, and their rivals in England and France believe that is partly a result of a qualification system that allows them to rest their players during the RaboDirect Pro12 season.

Premiership Rugby chief executive Mark McCafferty told the Guardian: "Most of the Ireland squad will not be released for the Pro12 until rounds three or four, something they could not do if they depended on their finishing position in the league for European qualification.
quote]

Complaining that Munster and Leinster have the advantage of not really having to qualify when they both finish in the top top six year in year out anyway is laughable.
Why can't they just admit they would rather more average English and French teams play in the ERC instead of average Scots, Italian and Welsh Sides?

[welshy08]

So if (as the English insist) there is relegation from the pro12-where exactly are these relegated teams going to be relegated to?

There is no structure or anything at all below them..
Only oblivion.

What if the Celts etc bow down?

What will be demanded next time?

An even bigger piece of the pie?

How can you reason with people like that?

If i wasca tigers supporter it really would be time to go support a Celtic team of some kind.

Least they have the good of the game - and not rampant greed in their hearts.

[Isambard]

Good of the game?? ERC??? IRB??? Dublin??? Gravy train???

I think that it can only be good if someone challenges the cosy corner that is in Dublin.
Anglo-French competition, bring it on.

[Jay C]

I understand that there is a perceived imbalance, but I have to say that asking the Rabo sides to change their qualification process is not the answer...
Making them qualify will not make any real difference to the latter stages of the HC.
ie last season's Rabo teams that were in the QF (or top 2 of their group) in HC & their final Rabo league position :
Leinster (1)
Munster (3)
Glasgow (4)
Scarlets (5)
Ulster (6)
Cardiff (7)
Edinburgh (11)

Swap Edinburgh for Ospreys (2) and you have the full set anyway !

Yes the Rabo could be more competitive at times, but there aren't enough teams available to introduce relegation. Its strength in depth will be cyclical anyway, so changing things now may not be appropriate in two years if there are only 6 decent teams in it !

The HC is a EURO competition and so needs representation from all of Europe in it. We should be looking to expand it to other countries, not virtually exclude Italy and possibly Scotland from it - that will not make it a "fairer" or "better" competition.

Isambard - I for one would not watch an anglo-french competition with anywhere near the same level of interest as I do the HC.

For me, the english & french should look at options like restructuring their own leagues and fixtures to give their clubs a "fairer" chance to compete in the HC, but they won't because (as the spokesman said) it is all about the money....

[Bill W (2)]

Without England and France the HC does not exist.

And without HC Celtic clubs go bust.

End of story.

[johnthegriff]

Of course it is about money, our clubs need money as the players need paying, our players are not funded by the RFU in the way that say Munster and Leinster players are funded by the IRU.
The Rabo direct is not a highly regarded competetive league like the Premiership if it were Munster would get as many fans at Thomund Park for a league game as they do for a Heineken cup match and key international players would be playing in at least half of the league matches.
I would hate to see the end of the Heineken Cup as I think it a marvelous competition but it must be fair to all teams competing. My suggestion would be that from the Rabo there should be six or eight automatic places to include the top team from each country. To keep the H.C numbers the same the remaining teams to have a play off against top teams from elsewhere in Europe, Portugal, Spain, Rumania Russia for instance.

[Smurphswillgetya]

Forget about all this HC rubbish, let's go back to the days when the only game that mattered was beating Bath

[The Boy Dave]

I would like to see the H.C stay but clearly something has to give. It isn't a level playing field regarding pressure on players and it does make a difference.
Anglo/French Cup with the teams from the English Premiership/Championship and French Top 14/Pro D2 could be good. Drive up the standards all round and create some interesting fixtures.

[TigerLad]

I would like to see the H.C stay but clearly something has to give. It isn't a level playing field regarding pressure on players and it does make a difference.
Anglo/French Cup with the teams from the English Premiership/Championship and French Top 14/Pro D2 could be good. Drive up the standards all round and create some interesting fixtures.

I dont think that would work, I dont think Toulouse vs Bristol would be an interesting fixture.

[The Boy Dave]

I dont think that would work, I dont think Toulouse vs Bristol would be an interesting fixture.

Why not?
Sure there would be a few hidings dished out but some nice shocks also I think. At very least it would bring a little romance into the game and give the smaller clubs a chance to attract more supporters and the big clubs the chance to give their entire squads a run out. I think it would benefit the sport greatly in England and France.

[Jeremy Anderson]

For a more level playing field how about putting a cap on the salaries of the match day squad. Although this would allow certain clubs to still have bigger squads to cover injury as least the two playing squads would be constrained equally.