Are Tigers the new Chokers?

[tonyw]

Let's just look at a simple stat here - 8 consecutive finals and only 3 wins. That's choking in anyone's book. I'm actually quite angry about today. What game plan exactly was Cockers playing? Wear 'em down in the forwards in traditional Tigers attritional style and mop up in the last 20? On a cold wet day in February, yes. In today's heat it was NAIVE in the extreme. As someone has already said, we had no answer to Quins offloading. We couldn't get our hands on the ball and when we did, what did we do (mostly)? KICK IT AWAY!"!!! We showed we could tear them apart when we ran straight at them but this never seemed part of the plan. (Deep breath now...setting up for howls of derision...) What exactly does Allen bring to the party? One good run in the first half and good support to take his try in the second. How often did Manu get the ball at pace? 12T was brought on with 6 minutes remaining. His passing ability just might have opened up the defence and given us a chance - if he'd had 20-30 minutes. I don't care that he's not going to be around next year (well I do actually but that's another story) - I just wanted to win TODAY. When all the subs were brought on in those last few minutes it was an act of desperation. It nearly worked but the changes should have been made MUCH earlier. I'm sorry but WE ARE TIGERS and losing in the final is not enough. I'm afraid Cockers needs to look long and hard at his tactics because we were outplayed today by an inferior team.

Good and sensible post!

[Smurphswillgetya]

Chokers would be one's that make the semi's but do not make the final. 8 Finals in a row shows we are no chokers. Nobody called Tigers chokers when Johnson and Back and Corry had their last games and failed to win the final.

I am afraid today's defeat can be blamed on the fact that Manu had a poor game, Waldron's sinning binning was mindless and stupid, several forward passes and knock-ons when a few games ago we would have scored. The loss of Toby (and this is not a go at Ford) IMHO was also a vital factor. Not chokers just beaten on the day by another team

[loretta]

Damn right!

Aiden McDowell had it spot on.

League games, no problem, semi's no problem. But how many finals have we won in recent years? No way near enough!

[DaveRave]

A few weeks ago we fortuitously won at Quins. They learnt from that, adapted, identified our weaknesses (and theirs) and played a mostly excellent game of rugby. We played crash ball. It didn't work. Therefore we lost.

[Bill W (2)]

IMHO Pete has it right.

There remains a coaching issue.

We can try and sweep it under the "Sequins played better on the day carpet"; we can try to blame Manu (why was he not subbed off?); we can try and blame Barnes (no way was Waldrom a yellow card offense - the ball was out!)

But the coaching issue remains.

3 out of 8.

[Chesterfield Chris]

Yes I was very disappointed to lose today. I said in the run up to the game that I thought we would have too much in the end but that in one off sport between the two best sides in the league you never know.
We were beaten today by the team that played the best and smartest rugby on the day. Waldom's yellow card cost us 9 points while he was off the pitch - to me a crucial part of the match. I believe that had we have gone in 13-11 up at HT after all Quins possession we would have taken control and ultimately won the game. There are always key points in any sporting contest played at a high level - IMO this was one of such occasions. 9 times out of 10 Barnesy or any other ref would have given a penalty but would not have carded Waldrom.
To label the club as chokers (can't be the team or management as they have been different for each final) infers there is something wrong with the culture at the tigers. IMO NOT SO
I hate losing but every time we lose which thankfully isn't that often my first instinct is not to sharpen the knife but to reflect on what the opposition did well and see how we can improve.
Let's look forward to next season where hopefully we can make it 9 in a row but next time put whoever it is away!
By the way the guy who said "What does Allen bring to the party?" watches a different game to me

[Bill W (2)]

I hate losing but every time we lose which thankfully isn't that often

We lost five out of eight finals.

That is too often!!

[APJones]

watching from behind the posts (N stand) gives a different perspective from the side (obviously maybe the coaches should try it sometime !) but it was so noticible that we did not cover the quins wide game . When we did try we then let them through the middle !

I think we just looked tired after a long season of playing catch up - which we did brilliantly.

We still should have won today though we made too many silly mistakes and missed tackles - but then its easy to say that from the stands.

Roll on next season - I hope our new team get all 3 championships next year - I hope.

[Purebob]

If there is a coaching issue I struggle to see it from this season's record. Since having a competitive squad to work with a stream of incredible results and performances have thrilled and entertained. A slightly loose defence, but an exceptional attacking game, coupled with flair and passion.

The last "10%" thats missing is raising for the big games. Our worst "first team" performances of the season have IMO been Clermont away, Ulster away and the prem final.

That is not okay.

Yesterday Quins played what was possibly the biggest game in their history, and they played the best I have ever seen them play INCLUDING their win again Toulouse. They played BETTER than the rest of the season in its biggest game while Tigers played worse yesterday than we had since Ravenhill IMO.

Despite some posters well documented antipathy towards our current coaches , they have been manifestly successful in winning league games, and I would not throw out that baby with the bathwater.

I think next season is a genuine watershed. There is no RWC, our likely top 6 adversaries will likely be denuded by 6N callups similarly to Tigers for a change and we will have fresh legs added to what is a good core squad.

If we don't do well in the HEC and win the prem we will genuinely be chokers, and something will then need to change.

[BJ.]

IMHO Pete has it right.

There remains a coaching issue.

We can try and sweep it under the "Sequins played better on the day carpet"; we can try to blame Manu (why was he not subbed off?); we can try and blame Barnes (no way was Waldrom a yellow card offense - the ball was out!)

But the coaching issue remains.

3 out of 8.

Since we appear to have no problems reaching finals, what do you suggest? Should we hire a 'finals' coach?

[RWA]

BJ......sensible post.....Cockers should step down for the finals and bring a non-choking coach in. Who do people suggest. As predicted, this is rapidly turning into a post about the coaching staff as we had back in February, I have a question though, for that final penalty, clearly we should have taken a scrum, which ties in the Quins pack and gives the option of an all or nothing backs move. Instead, I'm guessing Geordan decides to kick for touch, putting pressure on an inexperienced hooker and taking the backs advantage pretty much away. Cockers anger clearly showed the wrong option was taken - by the captain.

[g]

Maybe Tigers should have gone off to Abu Dhabi it seems that Quins coped better with the heat.Also I don't think Waldrom should not have been carded, referees usually give a team warnings for persistent infringements before they card a player. Yesterday no such warnings were given so to give a card for that was harsh. A penalty yes but not a yellow IMO.

[Yelphere]

Quins deserved to be the Champions this season for their overall performance - they finished top of a league system . They played better than Tigers yesterday as well. Stand back from this seasons events and take the long view of what has happened over the past years .
Tigers have lost six out of nine Twickenham finals in the past eight years plus a final at Murrayfield. For a club whose vision is to be the best in the world and knows that winning competitions is key to that success - that is poor performance in any top sporting and commercial organisations evaluation. The world of European rugby has caught up and has surpassed the Tigers of the 90's and early 2000's. Looks as though that we stole a march on everybody in wising up to the professionalisation of the game, and now that everyone has caught up - they are better than us at it overall and when it matters - at the end of competitions. Over the past eight years our dominance of the game has gone. We have lost that winning edge - the past eight years show us this.
Clubs such as Leinster play with pace, ferocity, ingenuity and passion – and the players play for each other come what may on the pitch – that elusive team spirit in rugby where players bond together as a tight knit group of people, take responsibility for their actions and work it out for themselves on the pitch – reading what is in front of them and where the last score they made is never enough. A relentless pursuit of excellence in every aspect of the game and club operations is needed. The club has adopted an interesting strategy in players joining the club. Excellent quality players that appear to be just at, or under, the international selection radar – but it does mean we draw them from far and wide. That “far and wide” approach poses another key difficulty – enabling the key playing group/core to stay together long enough to develop that team ethos – and that gets further disrupted with long term injury. With poor performance now stretching over eight years – will the “far and wide” strategy be sustainable? Tigers cannot bank on its past results record to attract players – as it is now wearing thin. Tigers need to review every aspect of its operations to extract every ounce of advantage it can so that it enables the right players to give the right performance at the right time in all competitions it is in (whatever the rules are).
Thoroughly enjoyed this seasons rugby – we came back from the dead. But I don’t wish to be ending most seasons (as we have done of late) feeling disappointed because we haven’t won key competitions – English Championship and the European Championship – and it is these competitions that bring success to the club. LV Cup was a bonus - but its not as big as the two above .

[rdracup]

If you add in Wasps and Leinester HC finals you get 3 from 10. (I don't count the LV).

There is a bit of a pattern - perhaps not chokers - but something in the prep is - far too often - not bring the players to the final with the right mental edge.

Many of us scoffed at quins trip to the middle east - pointing out that the old school way of leicester was surely better - but the team that wanted it most - and played to their potential was not Tigers. I am not suggesting quins had it right... but we clearly had it wrong.

The tag will be denied by many - but if we turn up in a final in the same state again then yes - we will deserve the label. I would not pin all the blame to MOC/RC but some should indeed rest with them.

[RWA]

I agree...the coaching staff should take some responsibility, but how many times are we told about how the top clubs have leaders all over the pitch (England 2003, Johnno, Backy, Dallaglio etc)..so where were the Tigers leaders ? Someone should have stepped in to make sure we took a scrum at the end and not kicked for the line out ? Where was G.Murphy ?