Rowntree coaches England to win, but Farrell ****!

[Tiglon]

i think as England supporters we have to settle with the fact that there is not a wealth of talent out there who is going to come into the international fold and change the way we play

I disagree with that completely. Did we not play exciting rugby a year ago, in a way that was previously unheard of for an England team?

Youngs, Foden, Ashton, Manu, Morgan, Croft - If you can't get these match-winners into the game and threaten the opposition defense, you don't deserve to be an international coach.

Other players who could come in next season, and are more than capable of playing expansive fluid rugby - Ford, Cipriani and half the Glouc backline. The talent is there, it just needs to be nurtured and coached correctly, and sent out with a coherent and intelligent game plan.

[baz1664]

Dont think talent and international rugby should be used in the same sentence as Cipriani, if your plucking up names like that then the talent in this country is thin and my theory may be right!!!

There are talented players out there such as Ford but there is not a wealth knocking at the door right now.

England's play has always been pack driven and i dont think this will ever change, its just the way we do things, Lancaster has got a world beating pack in place, it is for him now to develop the backs that he has at his disposal and i think he deserves the opportunity to do this!!

[jgriffin]

When I find myself agreeing 100% with Tiglon - which I do - then it's time for a deep breath and a cup of tea!

[Tiglon]

England's play has always been pack driven, but this has to change. The game is different now. Of course back play will always require a strong foundation from the forwards, but you need to be able to play a bit behind that too.

You can doubt Cipriani's temperament, or his focus, and I'm sure many dislike his personality, but don't let that cloud your judgement and doubt his talent. Half the best sportsmen in the world are arrogant ****s, who cares?

When anyone agrees with me 100%, it's time for... well, I don't know, it's never happened before!

[baz1664]

I agree the game has changed and more expansive forwards and backs play is required to hit the pinnacle of the game.

England do have a never ending supply of world class forwards, Lancaster has fine tuned this area, in Croft, Morgan, Parling and Robshaw he has found an awesome world beating formula.

As for the backs thats his next challenge, if he can put together a dynamic set of players together with the talent on offer then Sir Lancaster it is.

I dont think Cipriani will ever pull the white of england on while Lancaster is in charge, the egos and un professional errors that players make, i.e. Care, Tindall have been stamped out and players such as Ashton and Hartley have certainly wound there necks in!!

[Tiglon]

I agree the game has changed and more expansive forwards and backs play is required to hit the pinnacle of the game.

England do have a never ending supply of world class forwards, Lancaster has fine tuned this area, in Croft, Morgan, Parling and Robshaw he has found an awesome world beating formula.

As for the backs thats his next challenge, if he can put together a dynamic set of players together with the talent on offer then Sir Lancaster it is.

I dont think Cipriani will ever pull the white of england on while Lancaster is in charge, the egos and un professional errors that players make, i.e. Care, Tindall have been stamped out and players such as Ashton and Hartley have certainly wound there necks in!!

I'm not sure our forwards are world beating just yet - we still lack a top notch specialist openside flanker, and other than Morgan they lack dynamism with ball in hand, but I agree that there are some very good foundations there.

To compare Cipriani with Care and Tindall is a little unfair. He has not, as far as I'm aware been convicted of any criminal offence (unlike Care) and from what I remember, (again, correct me if I'm wrong) his worst nightlife related offence while with the England squad was being photographed sober coming out of a club. Bear in mind he was still a very young man at this point and not a supposed senior player as Tindall was.

Let me be clear, I'm not advocating Cipriani as some kind of saviour in waiting - I do recognise he has flaws - but I think many have an excessive hatred of him due to his portrayal in the media. He was a classic case of the build 'em up, and knock 'em down mentality of the Great British press.

[tig1]

i think as England supporters we have to settle with the fact that there is not a wealth of talent out there who is going to come into the international fold and change the way we play

Youngs, Foden, Ashton, Manu, Morgan, Croft - If you can't get these match-winners into the game and threaten the opposition defense, you don't deserve to be an international coach.

Other players who could come in next season, and are more than capable of playing expansive fluid rugby - Ford, Cipriani and half the Glouc backline. The talent is there, it just needs to be nurtured and coached correctly, and sent out with a coherent and intelligent game plan.

Youngs, Foden, Manu and Croft all scored tries vs France or Ireland.
Morgan has been outstanding in both games, and Croft is playing the best rugby for England in his career. How is that not threatening the opposition defence ? Something has clicked with Croft same way as it did with the Lions. Maybe its working with SL / Farrell, who knows.

Cipriani and the Gloucester backline playing for England....i hope its a touch rugby game....

[jgriffin]

I think Crofty has come back on song despite England to some degree. Certainly we lack a specialist 7 and it shows. I would rather think it is the work of Morgan and the tight five that has added value to Croft (as would TTTE etc)by covering,breaking or threatening dynamically - it is in that environment that Croft can react naturally to all around him defensively or in break-outs.

[tig1]

I think Crofty has come back on song despite England to some degree. Certainly we lack a specialist 7 and it shows. I would rather think it is the work of Morgan and the tight five that has added value to Croft (as would TTTE etc)by covering,breaking or threatening dynamically - it is in that environment that Croft can react naturally to all around him defensively or in break-outs.

We are doomed to eternal disagreement JG

So any player (usually a Tiger) that plays well is despite England..and any player (usually a Tiger) that loses form is because of England.

So the tight 5 play of England + Morgan that has suddenly revitalised Croft isnt down to the credit of the England coaching ?..other than of course Wig who is running the whole show on his own whilst Farrell and SL sit there navel gazing.

[jgriffin]

Nah we are still tight - it's just that Crofty has had flashes of the old game coming back for a while (regardless of whether at Tigers or England) and I think the mobility of Morgan has created that degree of chaos that Crofty thrives on. Nobody has worked Morgan out yet, clearly a real thinking player not just a bullock, and their need to police him that little bit more creates a bit more uncertainty.

Wig is just a genius as well as having the Natural History Museum's type specimen of cauliflower ear.

[snoopster]

I'm not sold on Lancaster yet, he's done a decent job but it feels to me like MJ's reign is remembered as worse than it was.

The mistakes MJ made were in ditching the attacking flair from the game plan after one bad match in Dublin, rather than build on it, and in showing too much loyalty to players who weren't up to it any more. Lancaster, in terms of game plan, seems to be playing an even more conservative one than MJ and while some of the old players have gone Hodgson was first choice fly half until he missed a game through injury, Mears has sneaked back onto the bench, Strettle has replace Cueto, Strettle is a slightly less talented footballer but a few years younger, and somehow Stevens is still there despite showing repeatedly over the last year he's barely good enough for club rugby.

Of the new players brought in, fresh to the set up -
Morgan - MJ was trying to get him to play for the Saxons
Parling - MJ had called him up before serious injury
Barrett decent, solid player but offering no attacking flair (so like Tindall, basically, but not as good as Tindall was at his age)
Dickson - can do the basics well, somehow utterly failed to behind a dominating pack
Farrell - good 20 year old with a great temperament and place kicking. Shown little interest in getting the backline moving though and seems incapable of passing if he sees a gap to kick into. Despite all the hype he's currently a less rounded version of Wilkinson.

[Maximus66]

Farrell is undoubtedly a good goal kicker, but he comes from a team that has the 3rd worst tries for (24) in the league, so his pedigree will be of that of a player that is used to playing defensively; not one geared to unleashing the back line.

Nothing personal against him, just fed up of the media doing what they always do; bigging a player up just to knock him back down again.
The script is already written I expect.

[Broadstaff]

Have to say that yesterday to have tried got the back line moving would have been to invite Ireland back into the game. The number of dropped balls (some not even in contact) showed how difficult the conditions were for handling. Farrell did what he had to do to win that game on that day and, in my opinion, he did it very well.

[Jay C]

Have to say that yesterday to have tried got the back line moving would have been to invite Ireland back into the game. The number of dropped balls (some not even in contact) showed how difficult the conditions were for handling. Farrell did what he had to do to win that game on that day and, in my opinion, he did it very well.

Farrel kicked his goals well, but - at least twice - he kicked the ball away when we had overlaps where a simple (minimal risk) ball through the hands would have meant a certain try - one was a 5 on 2 on their 22... !!!!!!

He still has a lot to learn - lets hope the press does NOT big him up in any way, but lets him continue his rugby education ....

[Jay C]

I'm not sold on Lancaster yet, he's done a decent job but it feels to me like MJ's reign is remembered as worse than it was.

The mistakes MJ made were in ditching the attacking flair from the game plan after one bad match in Dublin, rather than build on it, and in showing too much loyalty to players who weren't up to it any more. Lancaster, in terms of game plan, seems to be playing an even more conservative one than MJ and while some of the old players have gone Hodgson was first choice fly half until he missed a game through injury, Mears has sneaked back onto the bench, Strettle has replace Cueto, Strettle is a slightly less talented footballer but a few years younger, and somehow Stevens is still there despite showing repeatedly over the last year he's barely good enough for club rugby.

Of the new players brought in, fresh to the set up -
Morgan - MJ was trying to get him to play for the Saxons
Parling - MJ had called him up before serious injury
Barrett decent, solid player but offering no attacking flair (so like Tindall, basically, but not as good as Tindall was at his age)
Dickson - can do the basics well, somehow utterly failed to behind a dominating pack
Farrell - good 20 year old with a great temperament and place kicking. Shown little interest in getting the backline moving though and seems incapable of passing if he sees a gap to kick into. Despite all the hype he's currently a less rounded version of Wilkinson.

+1

Also, he wanted to play Hodgson at 10 and he has started Botha, and played Dowson, every game - neither international class AT ALL....

And we were promised a new, exiting, attacking England......

However, I did not expect England to WIN four from five this 6N and at international level, it is all about the winning.....

Well done Lancaster for the spirit in the squad and playing a real leader as captain (who might not have been picked if Wood had stayed fit....), but there is plenty to improve on if we are to be World No 1 again by 2015.......

BIG call to pick anyone else now, but perhaps a BIGGER call to appoint Lancaster as coach for 2015 ????