Crumblies wrote: Was it the salary cap that prevented us chasing our innumerable kicks with speed and conviction and then pressurising the opposition when we did get there.
Was it the salary cap that prevented us from commiting players to the breakdown and then competing with intensity. Was it the salary cap that prevented from executing more than one worthwhile backs move all evening. Is it the salary cap that is preventing us from being able to use Tom Crofts natural athleticism and ball handling skills in the loose.
was it RCs fault that 12Ts kicks were nearly all too long to chase them - noone stood a chance of pressurising the kicker on most occasions so it was better to advance as a line?
was it RCs fault that 12Ts seemed incapable of organising a backs move (as shown against wasps as well so maybe this was!) and he seemed to choose the wrong options and seemed to disintegrate after the missed penalty?
was it RCs fault that we got done over at nearly every breakdown and that croft could have put more into the breakdown area like ferris did at 6 rather than trying to use his loose play?
was it RCs fault the BY continually lost his cool and that cole got himself sin-binned for back chat?
im not trying to say that everything is right at tigers, i think a few things need changing, but friday night was mainly down to the players themselves and they need to take the majority of the blame for the abject performance.
12Ts had a shocker at 10 against wasps - the two tries and the place kicking hid this to a certain extent but his management of the backline was awful. you cant just blame the coaches for that - and the same on friday. you can blame the coaches for sticking with 12Ts rather than staunton at 10 though and 12Ts at 12.
I know no-one here wants to give The Lord Barnes of Sky & ST any time or credence here, so I was dubious about referencing his opinion expressed in yesterday's paper...
[Takes Deep Breath]
Actually I agreed with him - its not really Tigers we should worry about, its English rugby and the Premiership (and RC is no more to blame than anyone else running a Premiership playing squad):
How many times do we see the mastery of the 'defensive line', over attacking potency? How often do we see sloppy box kicks, inadequate high balls and poor chases? Where's the ambition in much of the kicking for touch? Where is the attacking flanker we all remember (be it Shane Jennings, Neil Back, Lewis, or even Ben Herring? Why do we seem to value power (eg Alex) over subtlety and nous (eg Scottie)?
And I have a theory, that it isnt just the money that's to blame - at least directly: How many premiership teams are playing on what would in other leagues be narrow pitches (often football pitches)? Take a look at the fields of play available to the Irish clubs (related to the Gaelic game perhaps?). Narrow pitches aid defensive dominance imho, and Tigers have one of the narrowest (if not the narrowest). At least there's something we could do about this particular problem - widen our pitch to its full (post redevelopment) potential width, now, and never minding that a few fans in the Goldsmiths stand we be marginally inconvenienced.
But more important is what to do about the poor fare we are regularly served up in the Premiership. It has strangled the national team and it seems it is afflicting Tigers now too.
Basically he is right. A club with a budget 50% of another club cannot compete on a long term basis. I think that is the same in all sports.
Only 4 clubs have ever won the English football premiership in the last 18 years. Its just a money table.
The simple fact is that if Tigers budget was doubled to 9 million overnight, they could go out and sign an additional 10-12 world class players.
So the challenge for Tigers is how they close that gap in other ways. And i think as many others have said on this forum it means you have to have coaching and strategy of the highest order to bridge the financial disparity as best you can.
I'm afraid this statement just shows Cockers' lack of tactical nous, relying on a knee jerk reaction instead. As has been mentioned here there are AP teams with excellent prospects for progressing and indeed Saints reached the final last year. If he had waited until the AP interest in the HC was over (in the early stages) he would have had a valid point.
Yes, being able to throw money at a problem helps, but only if you know where to throw it. Look at what the Clough/Taylor partnership achieved with not one but two unfashionable teams lacking in star names (Derby and Notts F). Nearer to home Martin O'Neil worked wonders over the road, and with the other teams he has managed. Load of money hasn't helped the City this season has it?
Those who have argued that Friday night was down to the players alone cannot have it both ways. The poor start to the season was down to the RWC taking our best players. Performances like Friday are down to them being no good. Sorry, the common theme through this is the coaching team and the timing of this statement doesn't help.
Opportunities always look bigger going than coming.
I think thats right GS. Having the greatest playing budget is clearly a major starting advantage. But you have to add on to it good coaching.
BUT it is true that a club with money and a good coach will ultimately triumph vs a club with a lot less money and a good coach.
Sadly the days of somebody doing what Clough / Taylor did will not be repeated. You could put Jose Mourinho in charge of Notts Forest today but he wouldnt have the remotest possibility of ever winning the premiership or European Cup.
With the new Marquee signing rule, combined with home grown credits, Tigers budget i guess should be approaching 5 million pounds for 2012/13 which is no shoddy number
I have been very defensive of RC and the coaching team, but i must admit that Friday night has me also thinking that changes certainly need to be made.
Grimlish wrote:I know no-one here wants to give The Lord Barnes of Sky & ST any time or credence here, so I was dubious about referencing his opinion expressed in yesterday's paper...
[Takes Deep Breath]
Actually I agreed with him - its not really Tigers we should worry about, its English rugby and the Premiership (and RC is no more to blame than anyone else running a Premiership playing squad):
How many times do we see the mastery of the 'defensive line', over attacking potency? How often do we see sloppy box kicks, inadequate high balls and poor chases? Where's the ambition in much of the kicking for touch? Where is the attacking flanker we all remember (be it Shane Jennings, Neil Back, Lewis, or even Ben Herring? Why do we seem to value power (eg Alex) over subtlety and nous (eg Scottie)?
And I have a theory, that it isnt just the money that's to blame - at least directly: How many premiership teams are playing on what would in other leagues be narrow pitches (often football pitches)? Take a look at the fields of play available to the Irish clubs (related to the Gaelic game perhaps?). Narrow pitches aid defensive dominance imho, and Tigers have one of the narrowest (if not the narrowest). At least there's something we could do about this particular problem - widen our pitch to its full (post redevelopment) potential width, now, and never minding that a few fans in the Goldsmiths stand we be marginally inconvenienced.
But more important is what to do about the poor fare we are regularly served up in the Premiership. It has strangled the national team and it seems it is afflicting Tigers now too.
Please forgive my ignorance can you tell me what is a "narrow pitch" as in my blissfull unawareness I thought that the width of all pitches was standardised?
Without hope we are nothing, keep the faith, a Tiger for eternity
We didn't do enough to even get into the game on Friday night and Cockers excuses are more than a little deflectionary.
However, he does have a point. Money, eventually does count. With a full strength team, we could compete. It is when you pick up injuries that it starts to count. We lose Toby Flood and we have the options of Staunton or an out-of-position 12T. If Clermont lose Skrela, they bring on James. You need seasoned international options from the bench. Look at the bench at Ravenhill, particularly in the backs - Staunton, Harrison and Hamilton.
It is much like football, it is in the strength and depths of the squads where it counts. If Arsenal loose Robin Van Persie to injury, the can only resort to Chamakh or Park as suitable strikers - both sub-standard and out-of-form. If Manchester City lose Aguero, they can call on Balotelli or Dzeko. And if pushed could also recall Adebayor or Tevez. If Arsenal lose Walcott, they call on Benayoun or Rosicky. If Man City lose Silva, they can call on Nasri, Milner, Johnson. But then Man City have spend £490M nett spend on transfers excluding players salaries, just straight nett transfer money. Arsenal have spend £35M nett over the same perion (1992-2011).
RC's point is correct, but in terms of PR you don't say stuff like that when you've just lost a match. The whiff of sour grapes hangs thick in the air.
Surely it would be better for the coaches of all the top Englisg Clubs to get together in the calm of the summer and decide whether they do wish to issue a joint statement to the effect that the structure, wage cap, and heavy demands of the Englisg season are nt helping our clubs' HEC ambitions.
Kicks and scrums and ruck and roll.....Is all my brain and body need!
Cardiff Tig wrote:12Ts had a shocker at 10 against wasps - the two tries and the place kicking hid this to a certain extent but his management of the backline was awful. you cant just blame the coaches for that - and the same on friday. you can blame the coaches for sticking with 12Ts rather than staunton at 10 though and 12Ts at 12.
You seem to be on a mission to trash 12T - every post of yours seems to harp on this theme. You seem to blame him for the frighteningly poor backs tactics seen in that match, including the ludicrous line-ups that squashed Smith and AT into a small track, the farcical use of trundling circle ball and first wave decoys, and so on. Take off the blinkers - AA was as much at fault in both attack and defence, as was BY. But the biggest fault is those who come up with this rubbish as coaching ploys.
Leicester Tigers 1995-
Nottingham 1995-2000
Swansea (Whites) 1988-95
A game played on grass in the open air by teams of XV.
i agree, BY was poor as well, and again friday but how can you continually just blame the backs coaching when the players put in performances like that? they could have had the best backs coach in the world but a 10 who cant seem to make the right decisions and a 9 that is out of form and it doesnt matter what they have been coached to do midweek.
it was by no means 12Ts fault we lost, but he hasnt been coached to play like that, a long with a lot of the other players on friday
im not trying to say that everything is right at tigers, i think a few things need changing, but friday night was mainly down to the players themselves and they need to take the majority of the blame for the abject performance.
What happened to we are all in this together ie teamwork? This means players and coaches are culperable
Without hope we are nothing, keep the faith, a Tiger for eternity
it was by no means 12Ts fault we lost, but he hasnt been coached to play like that, a long with a lot of the other players on friday
You bet it wasn't. 12Ts was by no means the worst on Friday as you seemed to hint in an earlier post. Particularly when you then extended this back to the Wasps game at which you claimed he had a 'shocker'. Thats your opinion it certainly wasn't mine and it wasn't the opinion of most of the pundits I read and listened to after the game.
On Friday he missed a sitter of a penalty, I saw Nick Evans miss just such a sitter in the same weekend. Some of his kicking from hand on Friday was well below the standard expected, but overall I felt he was no worse than many others.
You'd like to think he hasn't been coached to play like that. Sadly I'm not so sure, given the amount of game time he has been given in the last three years, and the number of times he has had to play second fiddle to Staunton.
so you think he had a good game against wasps then? the performance as a 10 for me was pretty rubbish - the tries he got had very little to do with him, but they were well taken. the problem is if the 10 puts in a rubbish display its very hard for the backline to do anything so he has a big effect. he wasnt the worst on friday but he wasnt far off - and i never blamed him for the missed penalty, its just that after he missed the next 10 minutes he just seemed to make mistake after mistake.
