Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

[Ian Cant]

Keep Richard Cockerill because with the right team behind him and more luck with injuries he has the ability to bring European Glory back. I have always said you need your best players available for the really important games. We haven't had anywhere near a full squad available since the Pat Howard days. Do supporters think we'd have won the HC in Paris or Cardiff without say, Oz, Stimpson or Johnno!! No. The salary cap and internationals are to blame. Player for player Ulster looked stronger on paper before the game and I keep saying it but we miss Crane. He is our Deano.

[SpanishTiger]

This is again the root of the problem: "the salary cap, injuries, the World Cup"

other teams also suffer from the salary cap, other teams had the same injuries than we did. Other teams had as many internationals as we did away. These are SURELY factors that we had and didn't help, but others did as well.

Again the failure is to look at ourselves, we are turning into (forgive me for this LFC posters) the Red and White Kop forum where everything is a big conspiration against Liverpool.

We were once the team everyone complained about, everyone attacked, everyone talked about, everyone accused.......

now..............

we are part of the "everyone".

(Also a mistake I made in my assesment of the big HC games: I failed to mention the wins against Scarlets, not intentionally I swear, I just simply forgot) So it would be 7 losses, 2 draws, 5 wins (big games)

[SpanishTiger]

Also, surprising that no one mentioned Martin Johnson! Could he be the inspiration we need as DoR? Could he perform better at a club level than at national level? Perhaps if surrounded by good coaches Johnno will shine in Leicester? What do you all think?

[PM76]

Also, surprising that no one mentioned Martin Johnson! Could he be the inspiration we need as DoR? Could he perform better at a club level than at national level? Perhaps if surrounded by good coaches Johnno will shine in Leicester? What do you all think?

I think nobody has mentioned Johnno as he and Cockers have made the same sort of decisions, there would be no point in replacing Cockers with Johnno. If Cockers were to go, which I am not in favour of (yet anyway) then I think we need a top class coach to take us to the next level for example Nick Mallet. IMO Cockers can turn it around but the signs are beginning to look ominous, he deserves until the end of the season at least and it's not about winning the prem IMO it is whether we can start to put wrong some of our faults, which we could do and come 5th whereas we could win the prem with the same underlying problems.

I would also say that MOC should be closer to the door than Cockers, the backs have been carried by the pack for most of the season but when the pack are matched or bettered we are stuffed.

One of the problems on Firday was the lack of fight and pride, especially in the second half and that cannot be repeated, look at the prem final, we lost but I could not have been more proud as a Tigers fan. I have mates who support various clubs and they said that only Leicester could play for 8 minutes like that, that spirit was severly lacking on Friday and that was what I was most disappointed with, Cockers can't let that happen again and I doubt he will, I accept we will beaten but to be beaten in that fashion was disgusting.

Give Cockers until the end of the season at least, I said that in the first thread and I stand by that view although my patience is wearing.

[Big Dai]

"I cant remember the 33-0, others might be able to tell me, but Im betting they kept coming at Ulster like the game was still up for it."


From memory...a rare thing indeed! The 33-0 was the "first leg". We then got 'em back to our place and issed a 35 gallon drum of whoopass to Ulster including a run in try on the wing for Johnno! The precise score escapes me but I think we won "on aggregate". The aggregate score now indicates how far we've slipped.

Sorry Richard.......time to go! Yes it will be a rebuild. Yes results may be slow to come but I will accept this as the price of improvement.

[Phil B]

Also, surprising that no one mentioned Martin Johnson! Could he be the inspiration we need as DoR? Could he perform better at a club level than at national level? Perhaps if surrounded by good coaches Johnno will shine in Leicester? What do you all think?

Interesting thought. But the problem I have is I have no idea what these Director of Rugby types actually do, when surrounded by good coaches. Maybe if you describe his role other than an expensive "presence" I might understand the idea better.

[Tigerbeat]

Tigerbeat, you are constantly full of excuses!

We are all disappointed with losses and the failure to win silverware and let our emotions take control. The situation has to be looked at realistically.
English teams will struggle to win the Heineken Cup whilst a salary cap is in place. Smaller squads mean that clubs players are not as fresh.
Irish and Welsh teams are almost guaranteed their place in the HC the following season and can rest their star players for these games.
The French have a massive salary advantage and can get more star players and bigger squads.

In the English game, Quins, Saracens, Sale, Exeter and London Irish did not have many players missing during the World Cup. Tigers and Saints suffered as a result and are now back up in the top four.
I am proud of the Tigers that get selected to represent their country but it has a detrimental effect on tge domestic game.

Do we want to see Tigers go down the line of recruiting players that will not be away during November and the Six Nations - follow the lead of Saracens?

[mol2]

For me Cockers had his chance at the end of last season when he failed to replace O'Connor as head coach. He stuck with O'Connor so has to go too.

Is mid-season a good time to make changes? Probably not but we aren't realistically expecting to win anything with this side playing as it is. Qualify for Europe yes we should do that but I think that's it for this season so what have we got to loose by not making the changes.

[fentiger]

I think that, currently, there is perceived by many fans to be a lack of any shaking up of the coaching system at Tigers. Whether this means that some coaches must go or others need to be appointed is debatable, it's the apparent lack of activity from the board that is probably more frustrating.
If we bought in a defence coach (as has been mooted) that may make MOC's job a bit easier and consequently this could be a catalyst for improved performances (not necessarily results). I would, in the short term settle for us playing a better brand of rugby, even if we lost some games. In the long term we would start to build a more cohesive side that would be a match for most European sides.

[bc]

Like one or 2 others I have been saying the MOC should go now I believe that Cockers should has well.
Could somebody tell me how Tigers have developed over the last 3 years? I do struggle to see any development.
All I can see is a failure to develop a very talented group of young backs into a really potent attacking and defensive force. Clearly this sits in MOCs area but I suspect that Cockers has a deal of influence on how they are used.
The forwards were once a feared unit in Europe but not now. Not only have others caught us up in Europe but domestically as well. Sorry, not caught us up we are behind.
With defences as they are nowadays (all accept ours!) the offload becomes a hugely potent weapon and we see other sides (forwards and backs) doing this to devastating effect (Quins are the best exponents in AP) but Tigers approach is one dimensional - bash go to ground and try to recycle. And we have been doing that for the last 3 seasons.
I have been following Tigers for over 30 years and they have always learned for their experiences but there is no doubt that this has not happened for the last 3 years at least. I remember going to the HC final at Cardiff Arms Park against Brive and we were blown away but by goodness did we learn from that.
Now we get beaten by Leinster in Edinburgh and the Q final last year and Sarries - yet we play the same tactics. As I said in another thread there is a definition of madness which goes "continue to do the same things and expect different results". That is what we have been doing for the last 3 years at least.
Players have to accept some responsibility but this is really down to coaching and now real vision of how to move our game forward to cope with the modern world. IMHO it is the players that have helped mask the coaching inadequacies over the last few years.
By the way I also think that ground redevelopment has taken the focus off the playing side from a senior management perspective

[SpanishTiger]

Also, surprising that no one mentioned Martin Johnson! Could he be the inspiration we need as DoR? Could he perform better at a club level than at national level? Perhaps if surrounded by good coaches Johnno will shine in Leicester? What do you all think?

Interesting thought. But the problem I have is I have no idea what these Director of Rugby types actually do, when surrounded by good coaches. Maybe if you describe his role other than an expensive "presence" I might understand the idea better.

My understanding of Director of Rugby is a person that controls everything, think of Alex Ferguson as an example. Ferguson controls EVERYTHING in Man Utd, he has complete support and a white check to run things his way.

So my idea would be Martin Johnson being the visible image of the club (press conferences, supervising trainings, etc etc) but then having a backs&forward coach. I think American Football teams use the same system, with a defence coach, an attach coach and an overall coach.

[MurphysLaw]

Tigers previous years of dominance will not return whoever is DOR or Head Coach. As Tigerbeat has pointed out, the days when Tigers were ahead, or in the case of European competition at least on a par, with other top teams have now gone.
The 'professionalism' jump on other teams initiated by the unpopular Bob Dwyer has long gone.
The top French and Irish teams are considerably better financed and have stronger squads, and by design the Premiership is now virtually a level playing-field for most of the teams(Common standard rather than highest,but that's another point altogether).
Even when Tigers had relatively stronger resources, World Cup years have been a struggle, and I had no expectation that this season would be any different.
Imo even when players are available Tigers do not have enough strength in depth in key positions to be a top team in European competition, and even in the prem other teams, I think Saints and Sarries have better quality.
Does any of this excuse the disappointing second-half performance on Friday? No, not really.
I wouldn't pretend to know where Tigers go from here, but if the Board still has aspirations to be one of the best teams in Europe, then they need to be taking a long hard look in the mirror, because at the moment we are only just one of the better teams in the compromised English Premiership.

[tigerburnie]

We've been in decline for the last 2 years - time to go.

You off?,switch the light off on your way out

[Zdzislaw]

Why not capitalise on Clive Woodward's experience?

[fleabane]

I think bc's post sums up the situation for me. I am also a long time supporter, and have been posting for some seasons that other teams have worked out our style of play, and have developed various plans to defend against it.

Our last effective coach was Pat Howard, who was creative in his use of available players, and who had the ability to change tactics to suit his team on the day, and during play. Neither Loffreda or Meyer had the time, (or support) to develop the squad.

Under Cockerill, O'Connor and Wheeler, we have slid back into the old ways which Pat Howard had been able to move away from. Unless there is someone with vision at the top of the coaching setup, and that definitely excludes Johno, the decline of our great club will inevitably continue.

Vision first, appoint a DoR or Head Coach who matches that vision, or who may even be part of developing it, the let them select their coaching team. Ring any bells?

The one thing I just cannot grasp is why SCW's expertise has not been brought to bear. He has his Olympian responsibilities, but is still a Director.