Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

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big john
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Re: Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

Post by big john » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:45 pm

The thing for me is that unless Cockers wins the title this year(not sure if we are really upto it) then Loffreda had a better season when he was here and he still got the boot. i nkow there was some issues of the pitch there but again that would seem to be an issues the club failed to spot/deal with and let it happen.

2 finals and he finished 2nd in the H-Cup pool.

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Re: Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

Post by kend » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:51 pm

The "leicester way" needs to be adapted and it needs to evolve, at present it is outdated, out thought by opposition and ineffective.
I'm not saying that things can't improve, but IMHO this is off the mark. I think I'm right in saying Tigers have lost 2 games since the end of the world cup - to Clermont (who are 2nd in the French league and a very good side) and Ulster (who played very, very well on the night), but beat them both at home. Tigers are presently 4th in the premiership and have scored more tries than any other team - which doesn't suggest they are are particularly ineffective.

You might want the team to play with a different style - but that is a different issue.

Cockerill is right, sometimes you do just lose; good teams sometimes under-perform. If anyone here really does have the answer to that then a fortune in sports psychology consultancy awaits!

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Re: Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

Post by platocat » Wed Jan 18, 2012 1:56 pm

On Friday I was watching the pre-match build-up, in which the Ulster coach explained that the Tigers game was one of two that Ulster had been targeting all season.

I gave this a bit of thought. How is that Ulster can build toward the fixture whilst Tigers seem to stumble from week to week?

Just like us Ulster will have had players at the World Cup.
Just like us, Ulster will have had to play a number of league games.

Where the clubs differ is that: -

(1) Our internationals occupy absolutely critical positions to any pattern of play we are trying to establish – it is very difficult to establish a system when key parts are missing. If we had (for example) a bac-up FH close in style and skill to flood we might be OK but if he was that close he would be starting somewhere else.
(2) We have to do well enough in the league to ensure European qualification for next year. Rather than simply developing players and looking for performance we are forced to go week to week in search of results. By necessity it is about ‘grinding it out’, certainly since the WC no one could countenance giving up on a result in the interests of refining a performance.

The question is how much effect does this have? My take is that I cannot actually remember the last time that I saw the Tigers field what might arguably be their best side in a single match. To establish a team capable of playing at a truly elite level then several games (not necessarily consecutive) would be needed to hone the plan.

So there are Tigers, one of Europe’s premier clubs, desperately playing men out of position, needing a big performance from players who are tired & out of form, lacking key players due to injuries that might have been avoided by rotating the squad and relying on overseas players who though very capable are not actually good enough to make their own international team.

In these circumstances I hesitate to blame the coaches because it is a hopelessly uneven playing field. Ulster were able to target a game months ahead and make their plans, Tigers had a few days. Maybe other coaches could do better but without a fair comparator it is impossible to say.

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Re: Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

Post by Hull Fan » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:15 pm

kend wrote:
The "leicester way" needs to be adapted and it needs to evolve, at present it is outdated, out thought by opposition and ineffective.
I'm not saying that things can't improve, but IMHO this is off the mark. I think I'm right in saying Tigers have lost 2 games since the end of the world cup - to Clermont (who are 2nd in the French league and a very good side) and Ulster (who played very, very well on the night), but beat them both at home. Tigers are presently 4th in the premiership and have scored more tries than any other team - which doesn't suggest they are are particularly ineffective.

You might want the team to play with a different style - but that is a different issue. quote]

Kend i can't agrgue with the facts you state as they are correct but some of it is about spin. We have scored tries but i think without checking conceeded the most points other than Newcastle! (So defense is ineffective)
The teams we have beaten recently in the AP Wasps no bonus point, Sale no bonus point, we should of taken bonus points or been in with a shout of a BP.

I didn't expect Leicester to beat either Clermont or Ulster away, hoped but didn't expect but i did expect the team to of functioned at some level and made a match of the fixture. Ulster was the only time i've ever not watched the whole game through, (i was working so watched the game 40 mins behind live time)at 50 mins i couldn't stand anymore and forwarded it to the end for the final score.
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Re: Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

Post by MurphysLaw » Wed Jan 18, 2012 2:40 pm

[quote="The Boy Dave"][quote]So exactly who, from the countless young men, would you have played at 13 to unlock the Ulster defence[/quote]
I would have tried out various options such as..........................
10. Staunton, 12. 12T, 13. Agulla, 11. Alex.T, 14. Lewington, 15. Murphy
10. Staunton, 12. 12T, 13. Murphy, 11. Agulla, 14. Smith, 15. Morris
10. 12T, 12. Allen, 13. Agulla, 11. Alex.t, 14. Smith, 15. Murphy
10. Staunton, 12. Allen, 13. 12T, 11. Lewington, 14. Agulla, 15. Murphy
etc
etc.
Nothing is guaranteed and it still may not have avoided defeat as the forwards weren't really at the races but it could have made us a little more potent in attack.[/quote]

Hindsight is a wonderful thing!
Of the 'countless young men' to play 13 and unlock the Ulster defence you would have selected Agulla (a winger), Murphy (full back), or 12T (who was filling in at 10, but is a 12), all ahead of Smith. I'm not sure who the etc.etc refers to, but I think you have just proved that we are not blessed with quality in that position.

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Re: Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

Post by kend » Wed Jan 18, 2012 4:15 pm

Kend i can't agrgue with the facts you state as they are correct but some of it is about spin. We have scored tries but i think without checking conceeded the most points other than Newcastle! (So defense is ineffective)
The teams we have beaten recently in the AP Wasps no bonus point, Sale no bonus point, we should of taken bonus points or been in with a shout of a BP.
Not intending to spin - if the facts aren't arguable then they aren't spun! Certainly agree our defence has been poor - although I'm not sure it's been out-thought, it's just been poor!

On the two games you mention, Wasps have one of the best defences in the league (now they do have a problem in attack) and Sale are actually playing very well - weren't they actually above us in the league at that point? Why realistically would we expect a bonus point from either of those games?

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Re: Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

Post by 1966 » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:26 pm

My opinion, for what it is worth.

When RC took over he inherited a team and coached / managed them to commendable results. However over the seasons we have at best stayed at the same level, when others and the game have moved on. It is staggering to see the improvement in Ulster, Northampton, Saracens and Harlequins over the past few seasons compared to us.

We need a coach who can succeed in the modern game and in my opinion that is not RC.

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Re: Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

Post by Antony D » Wed Jan 18, 2012 5:46 pm

www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/leicestertigers

article in todays local press, and I dont't blame him to be honest, we need to look at the issues and slove them getting rid of RC IMO is not one of them - possible help with the backs!
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Re: Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

Post by Big Dai » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:19 pm

By the look of that picture he's shaping to kick! Maybe he'll be playing at 10 on the weekend!
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Re: Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

Post by Pete » Wed Jan 18, 2012 6:42 pm

I think I'm right in saying Tigers have lost 2 games since the end of the world cup - to Clermont (who are 2nd in the French league and a very good side) and Ulster (who played very, very well on the night), but beat them both at home.
This is not the whole truth is it.

In a HC group with three strong teams which were always likely to win their home matches, it meant all three teams would probably lose two matches each.

So it was imperative, if they wanted to reach the quarter finals, that Tigers overall scores over two matches against each of Ulster and Clermont would be positive ie to score more points than they conceded.

It was also necessary that Tigers picked up as many bonus points as they could.

Unfortunately Tigers were not up to the task and completely failed on both of these counts. In contrast, Clermont especially and Ulster too were very successful at finishing with overall positive scores and in picking up bonus points. Both teams proved themselves far superior to Tigers.

But Tigers are by no means a bad team. With a full team, winning in the Premiership comes reasonably easy except against Northampton, Saracens and Harlequins.

Is this enough?

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Re: Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

Post by Big Dai » Wed Jan 18, 2012 7:56 pm

2007/8 season, all games Tigers won on average, 24 18, 6 point margin
2008/9 season, all games Tigers won on average, 27 17, 10 point margin
2009/10 season, all games Tigers won on average, 25 17, 8 point margin
20010/11 season, all games Tigers won on average, 26 20, 6 point margin
20011/12 season, thus far all games Tigers won on average, 26 20, 6 point margin.

We've climbed a hill, got to the top and are then slipping down the side?

Thoughts?
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Re: Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

Post by WiggoTiger » Wed Jan 18, 2012 8:05 pm

Big Dai wrote:2007/8 season, all games Tigers won on average, 24 18, 6 point margin
2008/9 season, all games Tigers won on average, 27 17, 10 point margin
2009/10 season, all games Tigers won on average, 25 17, 8 point margin
20010/11 season, all games Tigers won on average, 26 20, 6 point margin
20011/12 season, thus far all games Tigers won on average, 26 20, 6 point margin.

We've climbed a hill, got to the top and are then slipping down the side?

Thoughts?
Thats why we are all worried, unable to put chances away and kill teams off. In 5 years it will be the other way round...........UNLESS WE ACT NOW!!
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Re: Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

Post by WiggoTiger » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:09 pm

Cockers seems very blasse about his position! :smt018

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Re: Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

Post by Tigerbeat » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:19 pm

I dont think that Cockerill is being blasse about his position. He is being honest and is just getting on with the job and accepts that he has no control if the Board decide he has to go, following the Ulster defeat.

Qoute: ""But, if you are going to get sacked every time you play badly, there would be nobody left in the business.
"Nobody feels the pressure more than I do because I want us to be good.
"This is my club. Not because I am the coach but because I played here.
"Look at my record. There is not a better record over the last three or four years in the Premiership than mine."
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Re: Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

Post by Uhtred » Wed Jan 18, 2012 9:52 pm

Hull Fan wrote:Had we been more forward thinking last year (which we won nothing) and not used Grindall & Staunton so much then this season Billy & Sam Harrison would of been much more experienced and may be offered a little more than they have (not a criticism of either player).
Actually Billy had more games (total and starts) than Staunton last season. Facts are fun.

"(which we won nothing)" Hindsight is also fun.

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