Is it time to thank Cockers for his efforts? - Part 2

[bluntiger]

This is the 'SUN' of posts - sensationalist, lacking in any substance and devoid of any reasoning or arguement.

Much like other posters who declared that Tigers 'are a club in crisis'. We're not but let's not let the facts get in the way of a good headline.

[Crumblies]

I have replied to you on this subject twice. You have not responded to either of my posts. I repeat again, would you be happy if Cockerill resigned immediately and as a result we finished the season outside the top 6?

Isambard I hope you will permit me to respond to this stupid question on your behalf.

TigerAlex it is a stupid question for several reasons:
1. No Tigers supoorter, player or coach should be happy unless we finish No. 1 why because that is where we aspire to be.
2. Your question is hypothetical why? Because in your question you are deducing an outcome based on your perception i.e. if Cockerill were replaced and we finished below 6th that would be the cause and effect. Have you ever considered that if he stays and with the 6Ns almost upon us we still may finish below 6th, will you be happy.
3. What about next season, if Cockerill stays and we continue what many now perceive as a downward spiral until he the end of this season, what chance does that give the incoming coach to fix things in the preseason?

[sapajo]

I for one do not believe RC is uniquely responsible for the current state of affairs. As has been said on other threads he is just a cog albeit a large one in the Tigers machine and anyone who thinks he can bring about the long overdue evolutionary change in Tigers play without buy in and a mandate from the board to do so is sadly deluded.

Furthermore whilst change is long overdue it cannot happen overnight but it must start. However, at the moment there are shockingly no signs that change is needed nor indeed that if and when it will ever happen. That is why I fear for the future and what hacks me off the most big time.

[BJ.]

Why not?

Because all you're doing is cluttering up the forum with extra unnecessary threads. Have you not read the thread entitled Rules of the Forum, FAQ and other information at the top of the page? In it, the moderators clearly say, "It is helpful to other forum users and the moderating team if people can check to see if there is a current thread discussing a subject before starting a new one. We try to keep locked threads to a minimum, but if a duplicate of another thread already discussing that subject is posted, the link to the current discussion will be given and the duplicate thread will be locked."

All you have succeeded in doing is, a) create a repeat thread and, b) make more work for the moderators.

[Tigerbeat]

Why not?

It makes more work for the Moderators who give their time voluntarily and it is also duplicating a subject which is already under discussion.

Please do not duplicate subjects.

[TigerAlex]

I have replied to you on this subject twice. You have not responded to either of my posts. I repeat again, would you be happy if Cockerill resigned immediately and as a result we finished the season outside the top 6?

Isambard I hope you will permit me to respond to this stupid question on your behalf.

TigerAlex it is a stupid question for several reasons:
1. No Tigers supoorter, player or coach should be happy unless we finish No. 1 why because that is where we aspire to be.
2. Your question is hypothetical why? Because in your question you are deducing an outcome based on your perception i.e. if Cockerill were replaced and we finished below 6th that would be the cause and effect. Have you ever considered that if he stays and with the 6Ns almost upon us we still may finish below 6th, will you be happy.
3. What about next season, if Cockerill stays and we continue what many now perceive as a downward spiral until he the end of this season, what chance does that give the incoming coach to fix things in the preseason?

The answers to your questions have actually already been addressed in the other couple of posts in which I asked the same question. But here they are again:
1. Of course we shouldn't be happy unless we finish number 1. But will a whole new coaching team be able to bring this straight away? Or will it take longer than a couple of LV games for them to become fully acquainted with things at Welford road, the players etc?
2. Yes, I have considered that we may finish outside of the top 6 anyway. I fully appreciate that we are in a fragile state at the moment, especially due to the approaching 6 Nations. However, in my opinion, the last thing the club and the players need is a massive disruption which would be inevitable if the coaching staff were to leave. As others have mentioned, mid-season is not the ideal time for fundamental changes in tactics. For one thing, it will take the players time to become accustomed to new styles and moves. The long and short of it is I do not think that a new coach would have time to settle in and improve anything before the must-win Premiership games come around again and that things would get worse before they got better. Of course it's all hypothetical, as is the idea that some new coach would be able to bring about some massive change in fortunes in Europe next season. Maybe they will, maybe they won't. Works both ways- you are also deducing an outcome based on your perception. What I do know is that, at the moment, we are on course for a top 4 finish in the Premiership. We got a 4 try win against Saints with Cockerill, we drew with the top team in the Premiership before the internationals came back and we haven't lost in the Premiership since the end of the World Cup. I think that at the moment, we are odds-on to finish in the Top 4 and certainly in the top 6. As I said in a different post, there is no point building for next season in the Heineken Cup if we aren't even in it.
3. A new coach would have much more chance of fixing things over the course of a full preseason (bear in mind that we were also missing half of our players for preseason last August as well) than in the middle of a season where we're already under massive pressure to win games and win them well. They would have much more time to teach new ideas and have the squad understand them and know them before the start of the season. Also, they would have the preseason friendlies to see things in practice and deal with teething problems before the start of the new season. And even if that wasn't enough, we can more easily afford to lose the first few games of a new season in bedding in new tactics etc than we can at this point in the season.

Shall I ask another stupid question? What makes you think that a new coach (thinking about who might be available and willing to come in given our recent history in hiring and firing coaches) would be able to do any better?

[The Boy Dave]

So exactly who, from the countless young men, would you have played at 13 to unlock the Ulster defence

I would have tried out various options such as..........................
10. Staunton, 12. 12T, 13. Agulla, 11. Alex.T, 14. Lewington, 15. Murphy
10. Staunton, 12. 12T, 13. Murphy, 11. Agulla, 14. Smith, 15. Morris
10. 12T, 12. Allen, 13. Agulla, 11. Alex.t, 14. Smith, 15. Murphy
10. Staunton, 12. Allen, 13. 12T, 11. Lewington, 14. Agulla, 15. Murphy
etc
etc.
Nothing is guaranteed and it still may not have avoided defeat as the forwards weren't really at the races but it could have made us a little more potent in attack.

[Isambard]

Alex I can't reply to a post if the notification doesnt come through to my mail box.

My headline was sensationalist deliberately and different to the other long thread. It is called moving the subject on. We have a man who has demonstrated so much incompetence that he should not be doing the job. It is called leadership failure and apart from Sir Fred Goodwin the usual reponse to to resign at the lowest point of your career.

The so called Leicester way is conservative and do nothing and hope that all will be well because we are Leicester. At the moment we are wallowing, in most people's opinion. I don't mind losing matches that I attend and pay good money to watch. I don't mind being at the bottom of a league if other sides are better than us. I do mind witnessing incompetence in management, strategy, delivery and above all commitment. The Ulster victory was our worst Heineken result ever and was it last season that Saracens inflicted out worst ever Premiership defeat? It is cumulative and something mega needs to be seen to be done. It is called drawing a line.

I will get my hat and unpack the pile of items just received from the Tigers' shop.

[Stupid]

Shall I ask another stupid question? What makes you think that a new coach (thinking about who might be available and willing to come in given our recent history in hiring and firing coaches) would be able to do any better?

I agree that if anyone wants to think about getting rid of Cockerill they need to think about who they would bring in instead. I'd also add that with the stadium building to pay for the club probably don't have oodles of money to throw at a big name coaching set up.

However, I'm not so sure about us having a history of hiring and firing. There has been a pretty high turnover, but in the last decade most left on their own terms with the only exceptions being Deano and Loffreda - and it's not like Deano didn't have a decent run before the fall out.

Howard wanted to go home earlier and was talked into staying another year - the board would happily have kept him in had he not wanted to go back to Aus. Meyer left due to family sickness and not feeling he could commit to the job and Wells left to take up a post with (I think) the Saxons.

[TigerAlex]

Shall I ask another stupid question? What makes you think that a new coach (thinking about who might be available and willing to come in given our recent history in hiring and firing coaches) would be able to do any better?

I agree that if anyone wants to think about getting rid of Cockerill they need to think about who they would bring in instead. I'd also add that with the stadium building to pay for the club probably don't have oodles of money to throw at a big name coaching set up.

However, I'm not so sure about us having a history of hiring and firing. There has been a pretty high turnover, but in the last decade most left on their own terms with the only exceptions being Deano and Loffreda - and it's not like Deano didn't have a decent run before the fall out.

Howard wanted to go home earlier and was talked into staying another year - the board would happily have kept him in had he not wanted to go back to Aus. Meyer left due to family sickness and not feeling he could commit to the job and Wells left to take up a post with (I think) the Saxons.

Fair enough- I think it's the Loffreda one which is most likely to put people off accepting a position and that's more what I was referring to than the rest.

[TigerAlex]

Alex I can't reply to a post if the notification doesnt come through to my mail box.

Fair enough, though maybe you could have checked for responses to your previous posts anyway? Or am I missing the point? (Genuine question- not being snarky).

My headline was sensationalist deliberately and different to the other long thread. It is called moving the subject on. We have a man who has demonstrated so much incompetence that he should not be doing the job. It is called leadership failure and apart from Sir Fred Goodwin the usual reponse to to resign at the lowest point of your career.

So much incompetence? That's a bit of an exaggeration. Yes, his history in the Heineken Cup has not been satisfactory, but if he was so incompetent we wouldn't have made the Premiership Final every year he's been in charge, let alone won two of them consecutively. I know the common response to this is 'is that because of or in spite of?' I don't know, but we'd find out with a new coach and it might not be happy news- it most certainly could get worse. Either way, even with a good squad, if he'd been so incompetent, the players would not have been able to overcome it to beat the best English clubs. The thing about resigning at the low point of your career is really how low. Comparative to other English clubs (eg Wasps, Newcastle, Bath) this isn't really a massive career low (though it's still not good) and there's also the assumption that it'll just keep getting worse.

The so called Leicester way is conservative and do nothing and hope that all will be well because we are Leicester. At the moment we are wallowing, in most people's opinion. I don't mind losing matches that I attend and pay good money to watch. I don't mind being at the bottom of a league if other sides are better than us. I do mind witnessing incompetence in management, strategy, delivery and above all commitment. The Ulster victory was our worst Heineken result ever and was it last season that Saracens inflicted out worst ever Premiership defeat? It is cumulative and something mega needs to be seen to be done. It is called drawing a line.

I will get my hat and unpack the pile of items just received from the Tigers' shop.

I disagree with you that something mega needs to be done. I think that there are a number of relatively small things which can be done to big effect. For example, hiring a defence coach and a breakdown coach.

[tig1]

In the end though even if you hire these additional guys, the Head coach will dictate the total style of play and the squad management. Isnt that the issue ?

The current situation has 'old' tigers stamped all over it by RC. The same that England had Tigers stamped on it by Wells and MJ.

I struggle to see how Tigers can really change with RC as head coach.
By nature he is conservative in style, the same as the majority of the old boys.

[jgriffin]

I have been an RC supporter and to some degree continue to be. However it is clear the coaching team needs a considerable overhaul (backs coach, defence, breakdown). This cannot be done in-house any more. If RC is a major block on the route to change he should go; if, as I have thought till recently, he is open to change, then he should stay as he epitomises the club spirit.
However whoever is the figurehead must epitomise the club, and have considerable input, if the club is to remain Tigers (rather than veer towards SA rugby, as HM was leading us).

[ellis9]

http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/d ... story.html

Cockerill makes a very good point. 4 finals in the last 3 years. Can any other coaches or clubs in the Premiership claim to have that record recently? No they can't.

I was gutted at the performance and result on Friday but getting rid of Cockerill is not the answer in my opinion.

[Hull Fan]

Bringing in coaches for this coaches for that, will be of little use if the DoR stays the same. Having coaches for this and that is simply a way of avoiding the problem, you can blame other people! RC is the top man so if we aren't performing (and haven't been for a while) then he should go.

Yes we've played in however many finals under him but have we really reached our full potential in that time? I don't think we have but that is a decision for Wheeler & Tom.

Had we been more forward thinking last year (which we won nothing) and not used Grindall & Staunton so much then this season Billy & Sam Harrison would of been much more experienced and may be offered a little more than they have (not a criticism of either player).

Ultimately i think that Tigers need to wipe the slate clean and look to appoint a new coaching team with some fresh thinking in it not the same old, old Tigers players. The "leicester way" needs to be adapted and it needs to evolve, at present it is outdated, out thought by opposition and ineffective.