The Tigers conundrum!

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neilf
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by neilf » Mon Dec 19, 2011 5:56 pm

Roadsweeper wrote:No credible loosehead as a replacement on Saturday's bench as we had three tightheads in the squad. Therefore clearly the development team loosehead is not credible to even play 10 mins at the end of a game.

You can't have a replacement sat on the bench just to come on for 10mins what if the 1st choice loosehead goes down injured in the 2nd min. A crucial HC cup game is no place for a development player to be dropped in at the deep end

Crumblies
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by Crumblies » Mon Dec 19, 2011 8:24 pm

sapajo wrote:My beloved Tigers is currenmtly a team of dinosaurs caught in a rugby timewarp of yesteryear. Management remain intransigent and unable to instigate the revolutionary changes that are an essential prerequisite in order to now compete successfully at the top table in the modern rugby era. Until such times as the management recognise and accept this fact, our opponents will continue to leave us trailing in their wake as they have already evolved and adapted their style of play. We are no longer a great team to be feared or revered we are however a good team that urgently needs to undergo a revolution to restore us back to where we belong at the top table of european rugby. I fear that instead we will lamentably continue to wither on the vine. :smt010 :smt010 :smt010
What an excellent post IMHO. Could not have put it better myself. I am fed up with people labelling me as a 'doom monger' who then go onto use excuses like RWC, Salary Cap and injuries. Whilst these may have contributed to our decline I am of the opinion that they are not the main reason. I am an eternal optimist, but my optimism is based on development for the future, confidence and faith in youth. Not blindly rooted in the past.

I watched the Quins game yesterday. They are operating under the same restrictions with regard to the salary cap, but comparing their performance to ours the day before, the speed, the freedom and the creativity of their play is something that we can now only dream about. When I go to watch a game of Rugby that is what I want to see!!

After the game a number of people on this forum chose to refer to them cheating and dredging up the past i.e. bloodgate, insted of looking at what Connor O'Shea and his assistants have acheived, talk about sour grapes.

Our coaches need to look and learn and quick or mind the door doesn't hit you on the way out!

Phil B
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by Phil B » Tue Dec 20, 2011 6:42 am

And I could not put what you are saying better myself. It's the performances that are dire, (not all the results, obviously) and the performances suggest we are departing the top table.
I could agree with you...but then we'd both be wrong.

4071
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by 4071 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:24 am

GS wrote:Just to play devil's advocate for a while. In how many of the games that Tigers have been victorious have the opposition contrived to lose the game, in much the same way as we managed to scrape a draw against Irish when well ahead? Even Cockers admitted that Sale should have buried us but managed to lose it in the second half.

It can happen because you 'take your foot off the gas' or wholesale substitutions spoil the 'shape' of the team or just lose concentration and get complacent. I just feel that with the quality of the players we have in the squad we should be beating more teams but for whatever reason we aren't. A few years ago teams looked beaten as they walked out onto the pitch at WR, and they were beaten even tough we played an average game.
Paragraph One: "Is it just me, or are teams consipiring to throw away games against us, even when we play badly?"

Paragraph Two: "Do you remember the days when we used to be able to win, even though we played badly?"


We're winning. Since the WC we have lost ONE game. That was in France against one of the top sides in Europe, with an outstanding home record and a squad that costs twice as much as ours. So when you say "we should be beating more teams but for whatever reason we aren't", do you actually mean that we should be expecting a 100% record, home and away, and anything else is failure?

4071
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by 4071 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:43 am

neilf wrote:
Roadsweeper wrote:No credible loosehead as a replacement on Saturday's bench as we had three tightheads in the squad. Therefore clearly the development team loosehead is not credible to even play 10 mins at the end of a game.
You can't have a replacement sat on the bench just to come on for 10mins what if the 1st choice loosehead goes down injured in the 2nd min. A crucial HC cup game is no place for a development player to be dropped in at the deep end

This is exactly the same argument used last season as we completely failed to develop so many of our Academy players. Instead we kept picking the likes of Bucknall, Chuter, Grindal, Staunton, Hamilton, etc regardless of form. Experience is what counted.

So come the following season, clubs that backed their kids - Quins for example - see the reward, and our Academy players are just a year older, no more experienced and still don't get picked.

First up, with Castro able to cover both sides we had a safety net. If Stanko went off in the first 10 minutes then we could have played with Cole and Castro for the next 70. But if there was another injury, then we could have brought on Jonny Harris (for example). Instead, the total lack of faith in home-grown players is demonsrated yet again.

Quins went to Toulouse with an 18-year old tighthead on the bench. They didn't need to use him, but they had faith that if they did then he would step up and perform - the same way the likes of Marler, Matthews, Wallace, Casson, Smith, Stegmann, etc have stepped up and performed despite thir youth.

The key here is faith in the players outside the core first-team group. If Cockerill doesn't believe that guys like Harris, Bower, Armes, Lewington, etc can even be trusted with a BENCH spot, then there is something seriously wrong with the player development systems we have in place.


By the way, I see that untrusted Academy failure Matt Everard - a cause I was championing last season when we decided to bring in mediocre Saffa journeyman Myburgh - has been a success at Wasps and has played 10 first-team matches for them this season. Having made just 3 LV Cup appearances in his time at Leicester. And Academy reject Greg Tonks made his 17th appearance for Saints (scoring his 7th try for them) having been allowed just ONE LV Cup appearance for Leicester. In the centres.

Why don't we trust our home-grown players in the way a team like Quins does? Or even Saints? Or Gloucester? Or even Sarries?

tb1
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by tb1 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 11:58 am

Well to start with Wasps are not very good so I don't see a particular reason to try and emulate them.

Tonks wasn't started against the Scarlets, instead they preferred Pisi out of position and got annihilated.

Quins are doing good now but they have spent a few years being nothing special getting to this stage, that is a luxury not allowed at Tigers.

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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by hww27 » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:25 pm

While we're on the subject of ex-Academy players doing well elsewhere can I just add one of our ex-Academy scrum halves is the only captain in Nottingham Rugby's history with a 100% record therefore making him the most successful captain in their history due to a 100% run in the B&I Cup :smt002 Yes ok it's only Nottingham but just goes to show what those never given a chance at Tigers can go on to do elsewhere..

Nottingham are doing well at the minute. There could be a few ex-players coming back to haunt Tigers in the league soon :smt003

I see the point about the Academy though. Whats the point in us having an Academy if the players arent ever in with a hope of getting a chance? For every Sam Harrison, Dan Cole etc there must be at least five or six who never stand a chance.
Proud member of the Tom Youngs Fan Club :)

mike
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by mike » Wed Dec 21, 2011 4:48 pm

Excellent post Crumblies - I hope Cockerill & O'Connor have the opportunity to read it - over and over again !
I think Tigers are way behind the top teams in the development of their playing style and their squad - we wasted a lot of opportunities last Season to bring on younger players and this has come back to bite us this year . The neglect of a talent like 12trees sums up the narrow mindset of our Coaching team and their continued selection of players way past their best ( the list is too long to post ) will make us permanent also rans .
If we do not progress to the HC 1/4 finals we will very likely lose our Top Seeding in the Competition - what chance a change of Coaching team at that point.

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