The Tigers conundrum!

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WiggoTiger
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by WiggoTiger » Sun Dec 18, 2011 7:54 pm

jgriffin wrote:Most posters on this forum seem to subscribe to one of two viewpoints:
1 Tigers are malfunctioning and there are several very questionable practices going on...poor backs coaching, poor tactics and so on
2 Tigers are winning matches and the doubters are being shown the door

The conundrum is easily solved:
Tigers have a highly talented squad with many top class players. A lot of sides would love to have home-grown or discovered talent like Tigers. There is a terrific 'dog' to the side that rattles even world-class sides. Tigers are winning important games.
BUT
Tigers should be a world-class side dominating the domestic game and shaking the boots of the Leinsters and Toulouses with their all-court Northern Hemisphere style. Yet they can't even challenge for restarts, garryowens and sometimes rucks. They are one-dimensional and largely predictable.They try to play fancy when direct is the way (as in the second half on Saturday when attacking around the breakdown brought rewards). They seem to lose their way for at least 20 mins a match if not more.

So both viewpoints are correct, really a matter of focus. Neither view (happy clappers vs nay sayers)will concede that the other is also correct!
But it keeps us happy..............
Well put Mr G :smt023 ....you know my view points :smt024 and I often get slated for airing them. It seems the happy :smt038 brigade have their heads in the sand and hope all this dire/woeful performance week on week will disappear.
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Tiglon
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by Tiglon » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:08 pm

Good post.

A balanced view is something rare on this forum.

However, with the AP salary cap how can we expect to dominate the domestic game? There are too many other good teams around.

Many fans seem to expect "perfect rugby". How often do you see any team producing anything close to that?

fentiger
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by fentiger » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:38 pm

Good post as ever JG. The old Curates egg that is the current Tigers.

SpanishTiger
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by SpanishTiger » Sun Dec 18, 2011 8:43 pm

I agree.

Smurphswillgetya
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by Smurphswillgetya » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:11 pm

WiggoTiger wrote:
jgriffin wrote:Most posters on this forum seem to subscribe to one of two viewpoints:
1 Tigers are malfunctioning and there are several very questionable practices going on...poor backs coaching, poor tactics and so on
2 Tigers are winning matches and the doubters are being shown the door

The conundrum is easily solved:
Tigers have a highly talented squad with many top class players. A lot of sides would love to have home-grown or discovered talent like Tigers. There is a terrific 'dog' to the side that rattles even world-class sides. Tigers are winning important games.
BUT
Tigers should be a world-class side dominating the domestic game and shaking the boots of the Leinsters and Toulouses with their all-court Northern Hemisphere style. Yet they can't even challenge for restarts, garryowens and sometimes rucks. They are one-dimensional and largely predictable.They try to play fancy when direct is the way (as in the second half on Saturday when attacking around the breakdown brought rewards). They seem to lose their way for at least 20 mins a match if not more.

So both viewpoints are correct, really a matter of focus. Neither view (happy clappers vs nay sayers)will concede that the other is also correct!
But it keeps us happy..............
Well put Mr G :smt023 ....you know my view points :smt024 and I often get slated for airing them. It seems the happy :smt038 brigade have their heads in the sand and hope all this dire/woeful performance week on week will disappear.
Good post JG but as usual the miserable moaning brigade cannot seem to accept that some people have a different viewpoint.
Of course this is my own opinion and other posters may have a different perceived factual viewpoint.

Cardiff Tig
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by Cardiff Tig » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:32 pm

good post jg, but where do you put the blame?

you're in the "terrible backs coaching" camp but we do score tries and when our forwards are on top our backs seem one of the best sets around. so should we be blaming the backs coaching for not being able to breakdown the top teams more (although we dont often get severely out scored on the try front even against the top teams) or is it the forwards for not causing the top teams more problems?

i struggle to remember when our pack really were on top of one of the top teams in europe, we always seem to come off 2nd best - apart from scrum which we dont seem to use as well as we used to i.e. 3 points almost every scrum that we had in the opposition half in some matches not so long ago!! so do we need a specific forwards coach so RC can focus on the whole picture? and is RC able to focus on the whole picture to a high enough level?

also the fact is that we aren't going to be able to dominate most top teams if you actually compare the players - look at the toulouse 23 today. i would happily swap 5-6 players for theirs, and im not sure they would say the same about our squad! i think more teams have caught up with us due to the salary cap

and i still think the players need to get a grip sometimes - totally agree about switching off in games and there is no occassion where RC/MOC should have to tell them not to do that, they should know that themselves!

i think im in both camps - i think we are not playing to our potential but im not sure you can target one or two specific areas for blame!

WiggoTiger
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by WiggoTiger » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:55 pm

The key IMO is CONTROL .....or lack of it. When the forwards are in control of the set piece, rucks and mauls we look half decent up front, this then allows the half backs to control the game and create openings which then allows our attack to control the game. If the general control of the game fails this then dominoes down to all positions and it becomes the woeful performances we have seen over the last few months. :smt022 :smt013 :smt022
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Cardiff Tig
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by Cardiff Tig » Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:59 pm

is game control a coaching issue though? obviously once the game starts the coaches have very little effect in the game management. surely our team with that many internationals should be able to control a game a bit better - i think the 2 games against clermont highlighted this. our forwards actually had the upper hand quite a lot but didnt seem to use it, they just relied on the backs much too early each time!

tig1
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by tig1 » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:03 pm

Tiglon wrote:Good post.

A balanced view is something rare on this forum.

However, with the AP salary cap how can we expect to dominate the domestic game? There are too many other good teams around.

Many fans seem to expect "perfect rugby". How often do you see any team producing anything close to that?
Tigers completely dominate the English game, despite the salary cap levelling the playing field. They have topped the table in 8 of the last 13 years and been in the last 7 premiership finals. The only team to come close would be Wasps who had a purple patch..and look where they are now.

Any team can have a 1 or 2 season streak. Last year it looked like being Saints, this year it looks like being Quins.

It takes a really great club to stay right at the top for so long like Tigers over a 15 - 20 year period.

fentiger
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by fentiger » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:03 pm

Good player and smashing bloke that he is I don't think that Geordie has the controlling and influencing position that captaincy demands.

GS
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by GS » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:33 pm

Just to play devil's advocate for a while. In how many of the games that Tigers have been victorious have the opposition contrived to lose the game, in much the same way as we managed to scrape a draw against Irish when well ahead? Even Cockers admitted that Sale should have buried us but managed to lose it in the second half.

It can happen because you 'take your foot off the gas' or wholesale substitutions spoil the 'shape' of the team or just lose concentration and get complacent. I just feel that with the quality of the players we have in the squad we should be beating more teams but for whatever reason we aren't. A few years ago teams looked beaten as they walked out onto the pitch at WR, and they were beaten even tough we played an average game.

Whichever camp you are in there is one common factor - we all want to see Tigers win. I just want us to do it without reading phrases in the report like 'The Tigers deserve enormous credit for crawling back into a game which for long periods seemed beyond them' and 'Frankly the gap in terms of skill and incisiveness behind the scrum was yawning'. We are better than that.
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by fleabane » Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:35 pm

You forgot to mention our lack of defensive organisation in the backs, jg. Too many overlaps, rushing out of the line, falling off tackles (mostly flapping around the shoulders. It is almost as poor as our backline tactics, vulnerability under the high ball and predisposition to knock on and turn over possession.

How well would we do if there was someone (Shedwards?, Oz(?)), who could actually get to grip with these problems which blight our prospects of silverware?
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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by The Boy Dave » Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:26 pm

Good post!
I think the "dog" is what makes Tigers a great AP squad but with the limitations due to the salary cap and competition from other emerging clubs Tigers are struggling to find the correct balance of players to also tackle the HC.
Cheery chappy

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Re: The Tigers conundrum!

Post by BT » Mon Dec 19, 2011 7:19 am

I know the salary cap has a big say but, it can be done. Quins are showing the way forward they are flying even working well inside the cap. Its all down to passion confidence and some good coaching. They do not have the so called stars we watch week in weekout but thier style fits.

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