Thoughts on England v Argentina...

[Tiglon]

How is it that Rugby Union refereeing gets worse every year? England conceded 11 penalties, for which they were warned numerous times, and given a yellow card. Argentina conceded 16 penalties (including a high tackle and 2 dangerous tackles), and were given one warning. The yellow card eventually came from Cole holding onto a players' legs in a maul while he was on the floor. Argentinian player did exactly the same later on, blatantly, and was not penalised at all.

Referee telling Argentina prop to scrum straighter, rather than at an angle. Should this not just be a penalty?! This is just one example of referee telling players not to commit offences again, rather than penalising them.

Offside line seemed to be refereed differently to the other World Cup games I've seen so far. Why can every match not be refereed under the same rules. I honestly think it's an embarrassment to the sport.

On the England performance... Martin Johnson's reaction to a pathetic performance "That's what World Cups are all about", accompanied by a little chuckle. Am I the only one who believes every good England performance in the last year has been with the Youngs and Flood running the show? When Youngs came on he made Johnson look like an idiot for not starting him.

Pundits reaction to Wilkinson's kicking performance "Well he's the best in the world at it, isn't he?" Erm, no he clearly isn't, not any more. As much as I respect Wilkinson for all that he's achieved with England in the past, his time has passed. He simply isn't the right man for the job. We need a fly half who will play flatter otherwise the likes of Ashton, Foden and Manu are wasted.

Request for Johnno: If you're going to ignore Flood, can we have him back at Tigers please?

[BT]

ITV are not any better they are as dull as it comes. How many times Ryder says England won by a single point? very bad journo!

[WhitecapTiger]

How is it that Rugby Union refereeing gets worse every year?

Bryce Lawrence

Argentina conceded 16 penalties (including a high tackle and 2 dangerous tackles), and were given one warning

I stand to be corrected here, but I'm sure Lawrence didn't even 'warn' them, he merely told the captain to talk to his players, whereas he actually 'warned' Tindall about Englands penalty count. Why did it also take him until about the 65th minute to talk to the Argentinians?

As ever with Refs, it's not the rights or wrongs that really bug me, it's the inconsistency. 6 mins before halftime, England lineout, ball worked to back man to maul forward, Lawrence penalises England for using 'blockers', Argentina clear to touch, Argentina line-out (sure it wasn't straight) and the Argies work the ball to the back man with players in front, nothing. This was where Dan Cole was 'binned'.

Funny thing is Nick Easter went to Lawrence after England's blocking penalty and said words to the effect of "That's how everyone does it", Lawrence replies, "No it isn't". Yes Mr Lawrence, they do, or at least the Argentinians did 30 seconds later.

Inconsistent for me. And a shame that we are talking about refs already, but then it was Bryce Lawrence.

[Tiglon]

I stand to be corrected here, but I'm sure Lawrence didn't even 'warn' them, he merely told the captain to talk to his players, whereas he actually 'warned' Tindall about Englands pernalty count.

I think you are right there.

The think that particularly made me laugh about the blockers in the maul penalty, was how the ref declared that it was a penalty for "players in front of the ball".

I agree it really is a shame to be talking about refereeing so much and so early. Not entirely surprising though.

I don't expect referees to be perfect, there is after a hell of a lot for them to look out for, and they are never going to see everything. Consistency and common sense however, should be a given.

[Granby]

At least we now know that we do not need to worry about Flood coming back from the RWC worn out. If Jonny can kick like that and not get hauled off, then Toby isn't going to get a meaningful run around all tournament.

[TigerAlex]

Agree completely with the comments about the referee. Most of the penalties he gave against England (bar the one for the scrum) I agreed with. Why he didn't penalise Argentina for doing the same thing, I don't know. They should have conceded far more than 16 penalties.

However, I disagree with you about starting Youngs for this match. Yes, he was England's best player when he came on and he should start the next match, but he'd just come back from injury and hadn't played a game since May. He's lacking match fitness and the last thing you want to do is start him straight after he's recovered from a potentially tricky injury and have him injured. If we've learnt one thing today, it's that England are going to be pretty screwed if Youngs gets injured. Wigglesworth is solid enough, and I'd trust him to come on and close out a close game, but he doesn't have the same urgency and game changing ability as Youngs.

I also partially disagree with you about Wilkinson. I think Johnson should have started Flood against Ireland to give him a chance to regain some form before the World Cup, but prior to this match, Wilkinson was in better form than Flood and deserved his start. However, he should have been replaced after 60 minutes. He was really poor and seems to have reverted back to standing deep and kicking away possession.

Other thoughts: Hartley and Stevens should start- Thompson missed too many tackles and seemed to be trying to pick fights everywhere and I really don't like that in a player. It's fine to be really annoying to the other team, but not to be outright confrontational like that. Aside from anything, it hardly endears the referee to your team and you could find the referee reversing a penalty because of it. Sheridan didn't do much wrong, but there seemed to be more aggression in clearing out the rucks after Stevens came on.

Armitage was ok, but needs to stand deeper in attack and run onto the ball. Too many times, he was too flat to receive a pass in front of him and consequently had to take the ball static. Armitage was not the only player to have this problem.

Support runners- where were they? When Foden made his break, there was only Armitage who was really standing to far away to be much help.

[Jose]

Re Wilkinson - what is this mysterious good form of which so many speak?

Is it the good form that saw Toulon fail to finish in the top 6 and qualify for the HC? Or just the fact that England are more likely to score with Manu playing at centre than Hape? Or solely the fact that he kicked two drop goals vs Wales?

Am bored with this illusory drivel about Wilko's form. He didn't do anything more than Flood in the warm up games, he was just lucky enough to play when Manu played rather than all 3 of Hapless, Trundle and Banahan (even Dan Carter would look rubbish with those lumps outside him). Wilko is still playing the same game that worked 8 years ago and it isn't as effective these days. Also, even then he needed Catt and Greenwood to run the back line and get him out of jail in the QF vs Wales when he looked lost.

Today it wasn't just about his (abysmal) place kicking, but also about his (aimless) kicking from hand, his ongoing total inability to spark a back line and more to the point the fact that he was completely anonymous for the whole 80 mins. We will have to do more to win against France, Australia, etc, and I simply don't think Wilkinson can supply it. Many also seems to have succumbed to the media view of 2003, with Jonny Wilkinson as the key figure. He wasn't. Our pack was. And the 2011 vintage isn't nearly as dominant which is why we need more from our fly half.

Rant over!

[tigermad]

I am still perplexed as to why Flood was not given any game time give how poor Jonny was with ball in hand. Did the backline actually touch the ball during that game? Why have Flood on the bench if you are not going to use him? I will take the win but will need a drink before the next game.

[Mr_Ben]

England's performance was shambolic.

We lacked any sense of urgency until Youngs came on and demonstrated what everyone except those on the pitch could see i.e. a faster paced game was going to put the Argentinian's under pressure.

They failed to play to the referee but then again with the way he was today I was left with the impression that he'd decided early on that England were going to commit lots of offences so was looking for them even if they weren't there...

Easter knocked over & onto the ball as he tried to retreat from a tackle is a penalty?
Ashton knocked over but not held but penalised for not releasing
Argentina splitting their drive from mauls and not penalised after telling England it is an offence
Argentina players repeatedly off their feet/hands in the ruck and nothing but a warning yet Cole sin binned for england's repeated infringements even though they weren't the same offence

Still at least we got a rubbish performance in at the start, surely we can't play any worse??

[TigerAlex]

Re Wilkinson - what is this mysterious good form of which so many speak?

Is it the good form that saw Toulon fail to finish in the top 6 and qualify for the HC? Or just the fact that England are more likely to score with Manu playing at centre than Hape? Or solely the fact that he kicked two drop goals vs Wales?

Am bored with this illusory drivel about Wilko's form. He didn't do anything more than Flood in the warm up games, he was just lucky enough to play when Manu played rather than all 3 of Hapless, Trundle and Banahan (even Dan Carter would look rubbish with those lumps outside him). Wilko is still playing the same game that worked 8 years ago and it isn't as effective these days. Also, even then he needed Catt and Greenwood to run the back line and get him out of jail in the QF vs Wales when he looked lost.

Today it wasn't just about his (abysmal) place kicking, but also about his (aimless) kicking from hand, his ongoing total inability to spark a back line and more to the point the fact that he was completely anonymous for the whole 80 mins. We will have to do more to win against France, Australia, etc, and I simply don't think Wilkinson can supply it. Many also seems to have succumbed to the media view of 2003, with Jonny Wilkinson as the key figure. He wasn't. Our pack was. And the 2011 vintage isn't nearly as dominant which is why we need more from our fly half.

Rant over!

I agree with you about today. I can't really comment on the 2003 World Cup though. However, he hasn't been bad lately. He may not be great at running a backline in the sense of scoring lots of tries, but he can be good at controlling a game, making sure England play in the areas of the pitch they should be, and keeping the scoreboard ticking over. The drop goal is a useful tool. I have criticised him for being too quick to use it in the past, but if the team is battering away at the opponent's tryline and getting nowhere, it can be good to pop over a drop goal, just to make sure you've got some points for your efforts (rather than carrying on plugging away and ending up being penalised, or knocking on). For all you criticise him, he's still the World Cup's top points scorer and you don't get to be that without some form. Defensively he is also sound. This is the form people talk about and he'd been getting close-ish to it. Obviously if he's having a mare with the boot, then that's most of his game gone.

I do agree with you about today though. I've never really been a particular fan of Wilkinson (for the aforementioned tendency to kick the ball away early). Had he been any other player, he'd have been rightly hauled off at 50 minutes. Flood should start the next game.

[Ads677]

On another negative note (sorry) but Lawes is very lucky not to have been carded, one nasty off the ball tackle and then, a few moments later, what I perceived to be a deliberate knee in the head of a tackled player - the citing commissioner awaits!

[Tiglon]

On another negative note (sorry) but Lawes is very lucky not to have been carded, one nasty off the ball tackle and then, a few moments later, what I perceived to be a deliberate knee in the head of a tackled player - the citing commissioner awaits!

I have to disagree on this, if you're referring to the incidents I think you you are. The tackle was a fraction of a second late, Lawes was already committed when the Argentinian kicked the ball. There's absolutely no reason to view the knee as being deliberate, in my opinion.

He won't be cited for either incident.

On Wilkinson, people cite his ability to "keep the scoreboard ticking over" as the reason for him being invaluable. Surely this is just a pretentious way of saying he kicks lots of penalties and drop goals? If that's all you want from an international fly half, why not pick Andy Goode? Or Charlie Hodgson? A modern fly half needs to offer a lot more.

[Darc Tiger]

Argentina really tried to irritate and wrestle their way too a win, and it very nearly came off. Strong effort from them, and they showed they can play good rugby at times too. They could have been miles head if the kicking had gone to plan. England found it very hard to overcome the disruption, but when they did, they looked like a threat. I felt we should have made better use of Manu, who would have given us the go forward we needed. England seemed content to use him as a dummy, but it clearly didn't work too well. Youngs and Stevens were game changers. Looks like Youngs is ready to rock and his recovery has been timed well.

Have to echo comments about the ref, and on Wilkinson. Flood should have been on after Jonny missed his 3rd on the trot and we were looking for a way back into the match. He couldn't have done any worse than Saint Jonny. Things to work on but a win is a win, and it is good to get this kind of game out the way with.

Well played Horace too by the way. Top effort from him.

[Maximus66]

Whilst I admire Wilkinson's doggedness in backing himself even though he repeatedly missed penalties, he should also have had the nous to back his team-mates by kicking for touch. I realise that on occasions penalty taking is the only appropriate option, but it was frustrating that he couldn't see another option was required.
The one occasion he did this resulted in Englands snappy try by Ben Youngs . The next penalty awarded to us he elected to go for the posts and missed .
I'm fed up with the insinuation that Tobe's should be playing second fiddle to Wilko, when we have seen what a an electric pairing our Leicester half-backs can be.

[Duncan B]

Wilkinson ran and passed far more than he kicked today, so he clearly hasnt reverted to standing deep and kicking.......his goal kicking was poor but you just know it will never happen again. People are so quick to be critical these days.