WC Refereeing.

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Bill W (2)
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WC Refereeing.

Post by Bill W (2) » Sun Sep 04, 2011 9:38 pm

P. O'Brian Esq. speaking for IRB has called on WC referees to more rigoroulsy enforce the laws of the game.

He made no mention of "Game Management", "Materiality" or "Context" - believing (as I do) that the Advantage Law covers these aspects.

No doubt the elite referees will ignore him.
Still keeping the faith!

kpb
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Re: WC Refereeing.

Post by kpb » Sun Sep 04, 2011 10:09 pm

Good to hear from you Bill. :smt023
POSITIVE MENTAL ATTITUDE.

Granby
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Re: WC Refereeing.

Post by Granby » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:28 am

Presumably the refs have been told to ignore forward passes, blocking and entering the ruck from the wrong side in order to facilitate NZ's victory. :smt018

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Re: WC Refereeing.

Post by Purebob » Mon Sep 05, 2011 9:06 am

Hi Bill ! Happy New Season to you !

And Granby, I agree wholeheartedly with you.

wardy
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Re: WC Refereeing.

Post by wardy » Mon Sep 05, 2011 6:45 pm

Its good to see O'Brien giving some instruction.

The Daily Mail today has a small article about it. O'Brian has apparently highlighted 5 key areas:-
a) the breakdown,
b) the scrum,
c) the offside line,
d) mauls,
e) and foul play.

The author then, rather sarcastically (but certainly correctly), says that that places 90% of Ritchie McCaw's game under threat!!! Had to laugh :smt038 :smt038 :smt038
Give blood, play rugby!!

Tiglon
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Re: WC Refereeing.

Post by Tiglon » Mon Sep 05, 2011 7:46 pm

It's a bit disappointing that referees need to be reminded to enforce the laws of the game.

BarmyBamford
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Re: WC Refereeing.

Post by BarmyBamford » Mon Sep 05, 2011 10:24 pm

Anyone fancy starting a book on the obvious number of feeds at the scrum ?

I'll open on 8 per game and obviously I only count those that go unpunished.

I also expect 0 to be the number per game that get penalised.

Bill W (2)
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Re: WC Refereeing.

Post by Bill W (2) » Mon Sep 05, 2011 11:00 pm

BarmyBamford wrote:Anyone fancy starting a book on the obvious number of feeds at the scrum ?

I'll open on 8 per game and obviously I only count those that go unpunished.

I also expect 0 to be the number per game that get penalised.
Elite referees, focussing on "managing the game" and "materiality" and "context" will penalise, on average 0.5 crooked feeds per game (when they come up on their check list). Agree 8 will go unpunished, as will 5 side entries to the ruck/maul, 4 instances of blocking, 13 occasions of players flopping over the ball, and 15 offsides (ahead of the rearmost foot). On average 3 lineouts will be taken with the outside hand (and unpunished).
Still keeping the faith!

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Re: WC Refereeing.

Post by G.K » Tue Sep 06, 2011 12:31 am

Bill W (2) wrote:P. O'Brian Esq. speaking for IRB has called on WC referees to more rigoroulsy enforce the laws of the game.

He made no mention of "Game Management", "Materiality" or "Context" - believing (as I do) that the Advantage Law covers these aspects.

No doubt the elite referees will ignore him.
But according to waffle aren't all three of the above vital aspects of the game for the modern referee?

Also, has anyone found a way of getting around Richie McCaw's Klingon cloaking device yet?
Nowadays referees decide matches, players by how much.

BarmyBamford
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Re: WC Refereeing.

Post by BarmyBamford » Wed Sep 07, 2011 5:42 pm

Bill W (2) I'll see your 4 blocking and raise you to at least a Doz. if it's NZ as they have perfected it.

At every restart there is a wall ahead of the ball and often in passing movements decoys are more like American Football lead blockers yet it is rarely seen by the game manager. ( Or, credit due, they may see it but choose not to ' manage it ' )

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Re: WC Refereeing.

Post by dailywaffle » Wed Sep 07, 2011 6:34 pm

G.K wrote:But according to waffle aren't all three of the above vital aspects of the game for the modern referee?
Whether or not they are 'vital aspects of the game' really depend on your point of view; I merely (and perhaps tiresomely) like to remind posters that referees are developed with them in mind. In some respects you are shooting the messenger.

I forget the stats previously given to me, but it is a statement of fact that a competent referee will miss (not ignore) a significant proportion of offences. Refereeing to the Laws is actually impossible, even from the safety of the crowd. The appropriate use of ARs / TJs and/or additional officials is something that I am quite open-minded about.

Bill W (2)
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Re: WC Refereeing.

Post by Bill W (2) » Wed Sep 07, 2011 9:39 pm

dailywaffle wrote:
G.K wrote:But according to waffle aren't all three of the above vital aspects of the game for the modern referee?
Whether or not they are 'vital aspects of the game' really depend on your point of view; I merely (and perhaps tiresomely) like to remind posters that referees are developed with them in mind. In some respects you are shooting the messenger.

I forget the stats previously given to me, but it is a statement of fact that a competent referee will miss (not ignore) a significant proportion of offences. Refereeing to the Laws is actually impossible, even from the safety of the crowd. The appropriate use of ARs / TJs and/or additional officials is something that I am quite open-minded about.
I have no wish to shoot the messenger. However, I would question whether the RFU (referee) development officers, referees and even the messenger are intellectually and philosphically capable of handling the nuances involved.

Of course all referees even with the help of AR's and TJ's and TMO will fail to detect some offences. They can be developed and trained to miss fewer and given technological assistance. That might be the subject of another thread.

What I am concerned with here, however, are those breaches of the laws of the game that are seen by the referee (or his assistants) and ignored because they are not material, in context unimportant or ignoring helps "manage the game".

Let us start with a very simple example - the winger makes an outside break - he is clear and unopposed - but he puts one stud on the touchline. Can the referee rule that the "in touch" was not material, that in context it was unimportant and that for managing the game it deserved a try. No, of course not. He was in touch. Line out.

Now move to a more complcated scenario. A dummy runner gets in front of the ball carrier. He is offside. He must not interfere with play and must immediately retire. He doesn't actually physically contact a defender but does not retire either. We may ask whether he materially affected the defensive line up and whether in the context of the attacking move this was significant. Sorry - he was offside - offence - if deliberate penalty if accidental scrum. Subject of course to advantage.

The crooked feed to the scrum is a very simple example of how referees are ignoring the laws of the game despite the IRB instructing them not to. I have not seen, even from dailywaffle , a defence of this along the lines of "well they would have won the scrum anyway, so materially and contextually it was unimportant. And ignoring it enabled us to better manage the game.

Like the stud on the touch line, the ball was not straight - like the dummy runner the player was offside.

Even the most competent referees may "miss" some offences - this is no reason for them not to penalise (subject to advantage) those they do see.

IMHO of course
Still keeping the faith!

dailywaffle
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Re: WC Refereeing.

Post by dailywaffle » Wed Sep 07, 2011 10:34 pm

I am unsure as to what is meant by the reference to the messenger's intellectual and philosophical capability, I can only say that I try my best.

The quoted offside is an interesting example. The laws clearly state that a player who is in an offside position is not automatically penalised. It is far too simplistic to say that this is an automatic penalty or scrum (or advantage); the application of the laws demand that the referee apply their own judgement in this matter. Owens may ignore it, Rolland may penalise it, and both decisions may well be justified as correct. Even though they are at odds with each other. Bill, you can argue the point as much as you like but in such cases it is often a matter of judgement rather than it being black and white.

As it happens I do have some sympathy with concerns over the crooked feed, as I do with other aspects of scrum management (incl. C-T-P-E). I can only say that refereeing the scrum is a challenge (although many spectators believe they are more competent than most referees), and that the crooked feed is considered a lower priority than other matters. At my level managing the scrum safely is the top priority, a decision that I am sure most parents would understand.

The additional use of technology, other officials etc. is an interesting topic, and one that is worthy of further study at the professional level.

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