Interesting.....Eng Team v Ireland

[Chobbsy]

[quote="BJ."][quote="silverfish"] Barnes seemed to be implying it had been Tuilagi's tackle that caused it.[/quote]Two things stopped me thoroughly enjoying yesterday's match: the commentary from Barnes and Harrison and the inept clown with the whistle.

Ever since Manu lamped Chris Ashton in the pay-offs, Barnes has had it in for him. There was even a subtle dig about the punch yesterday although I think it was Harrison who said it. This, coupled with an anti-English commentary, made for 80 minutes of non-enjoyment. Even after several slo-mos showed Manu's tackle on David Wallace to be perfectly legitimate, Barnes clung to his original comment and tried to blame the injury on the tackle.

The clown Owens displayed his usual Celtic bias. I cannot remember who it was but not so long ago someone pointed out that, in every Heineken Cup match between a Celtic team and a non-Celtic team that Owens has refereed, the Celtic team has never lost. After Cian Healy hauled Tom Croft to his feet by what appeared to be a reverse full nelson, it was Croft who got the dressing-down from Owens for starting the altercation! I appreciate he had given England an official warning before Ashton was sin-binned but, at that ruck, the Irish tighthead blatantly came in from the side approximately 3m in front of Owens. Did he ping him for it? Of course not as he was too intent in looking for any English transgression. Also, he wanted to ignore his touch judges when they ruled in favour of England. The two main incidents being,

a) Earls catching a Wigglesworth box kick on the halfway line with one foot in touch. The TJ on the far side ran to the spot with his flag out but Owens ignored him.

b) the high tackle on Armitage by (I think) Earls. Owens chose to ignore this and award a penalty to Ireland a few seconds later for something he saw. The TJ on the near side (Romain Poite) had his flag out instantly for the high tackle and marched up to Owens after play had stopped. You could almost see the look of disappointment on Owens' face when he had to concede and reverse the penalty.

On a final note, I see we have a worthy successor to Dayglo in the form of Paul O'Connell. He had a good game and I know he was the captain but he should know by now when to keep his mouth shut. He did nowt but moan and whine to Owens for 80 minutes yesterday.[/quote]

"There was even a subtle dig about the punch yesterday although I think it was Harrison who said it." - It couldn't have been Harrison who said it !!! He is incapable of independant thought, Listen and you will see he just parrots whatever Barnes says.

[Smudge]

N Owens

there was a great deal of debate regarding his bias after the HC game in Dublin.
With all the facts proffered by various posters on here and other sites, there was
never any doubt in my my mind that he is.

He missed or ignored so much in the International it was almost laughable.
The catch with a foot in touch, signalled by the touch judge was also ignored by
the commentators. Does no-one mark their performances anymore?

[G.K]

Can you please provide the evidence/links that referees have been given the role of 'game managers', I for one have so far seen no statement to that effect from either the IRB or RFU.

Referee development courses.
Conversations with referee development officers.
Conversations with others that have had the same conversations.

Heresay and there have been no official instructions from the IRB and/or RFU then?

[BarmyBamford]

There have been definite instructions from the IRB that get totally ignored, was it 2 seasons ago when they specifically instructed that not straight at scrums was to be enforced.
How long did it last ?

[dailywaffle]

Heresay and there have been no official instructions from the IRB and/or RFU then?

I do not consider instructions given by a referee development officer to be hearsay.

Are you suggesting that the referee should answer back with 'sir, show me the IRB link and I will do it'?

[TigerAlex]

Can you please provide the evidence/links that referees have been given the role of 'game managers', I for one have so far seen no statement to that effect from either the IRB or RFU.

Referee development courses.
Conversations with referee development officers.
Conversations with others that have had the same conversations.

Heresay and there have been no official instructions from the IRB and/or RFU then?

I'd like to back up what dailywaffle has been saying. I went on a level 1 referee training course last year. This course was run by the RFU and we were told many times that our roles as referees were to 'manage the game', ensure a fair contest and enjoyment for the players. Not to enforce the laws (although I know you'll say that players are more likely to enjoy playing if the laws are enforced). In fact we were told that enforcing the laws strictly was NOT the number one priority. We were also told that in years past, the RFU had provided a 'laws of the game' booklet as part of the course costs, but that this was no longer the case, ostensibly because said booklet is available online (but showing how much they value actually knowing the laws). In the course itself, there was very, very little about the actual laws, both in the teaching and in the little test at the end. In contrast a lot of time was spent on 'materiality' and 'contextual judgment'. This was also reflected in the content of the training folder we were given and which the course followed, if you need physical evidence rather than just 'hearsay'.

[dailywaffle]

I'd like to back up what dailywaffle has been saying. I went on a level 1 referee training course last year. This course was run by the RFU and we were told many times that our roles as referees were to 'manage the game', ensure a fair contest and enjoyment for the players. Not to enforce the laws (although I know you'll say that players are more likely to enjoy playing if the laws are enforced). In fact we were told that enforcing the laws strictly was NOT the number one priority. We were also told that in years past, the RFU had provided a 'laws of the game' booklet as part of the course costs, but that this was no longer the case, ostensibly because said booklet is available online (but showing how much they value actually knowing the laws). In the course itself, there was very, very little about the actual laws, both in the teaching and in the little test at the end. In contrast a lot of time was spent on 'materiality' and 'contextual judgment'. This was also reflected in the content of the training folder we were given and which the course followed, if you need physical evidence rather than just 'hearsay'.

Spot on.
Some might not like the emphasis on materiality and contextual judgement, but suggesting that this is hearsay is just plain innacurate.

[G.K]

It's no wonder then that the standard and consistency of referring has gone down. Materiality and contextual judgement?? What a load of guff!

[4071]

Also, he wanted to ignore his touch judges when they ruled in favour of England. The two main incidents being,

a) Earls catching a Wigglesworth box kick on the halfway line with one foot in touch. The TJ on the far side ran to the spot with his flag out but Owens ignored him.

b) the high tackle on Armitage by (I think) Earls. Owens chose to ignore this and award a penalty to Ireland a few seconds later for something he saw. The TJ on the near side (Romain Poite) had his flag out instantly for the high tackle and marched up to Owens after play had stopped. You could almost see the look of disappointment on Owens' face when he had to concede and reverse the penalty.

You missed one of my favourites, as Ireland were deep in the England 22 and attacking just before HT. The 40 was up, but Ireland were in possession. Suddenly, the TJ flagged for a knock-on.

Instead of blowing up and calling half-time, Owens actually asked Poite if he was sure about the knock-on. And when Poite confirmed, Owens again asked "Are you really sure?" Only after getting a SECOND confirmation did he accept the TJ's call.


Your first point, was that one in the first half? I do remember an Irish winger catching a clearance kick on half-way with a foot in touch and the TJ running up, flag in the air. The Irish player then stepped in-field and passed the ball to let play continue. I think Owens OKed it because it was a quick throw. But both of the winger's feet were in the field of play when he threw in (quite clearly) so it should have been called back. Owens shouted that it was fine.


I do remember just before one of the Irish penalties in the first half (the one that put them on 9 points, I think) that there was an absolutely blatant bit of crossing in the build-up, with POC taking out Thompson off the ball. I wondered how Owens could miss it. On re-watching the game, I realised he hadn't missed it, as a few moments later he can be heard telling Thompson something along the lines of 'That wasn't obstruction, you could have gone round him but you committed to the man'.

An interesting take on it. Apparently, when a runner in an offside position is between the ball-carrier and the defender, it is now up to the DEFENDER to get around him and not up to the offside player to get out of the way.


And - of course - the most obvious offence in the entire game was at 20-9 deep in the Irish half with England attacking. Ball was at the back of an England ruck, and Denis Leamy came charging in the side, and then grabbed hold of the English SH. This slowed down the service (obviously) giving POC time to stick his boot into the ruck and kick it out. Leamy, in front of the kicker, then hacked the ball on. In one very short passage of play - literally about 2m from the ref, who had a clear view - Leamy had come into the side of a ruck, interfered with a SH and chased a kick from an offside position. Three penalty offences inside 3 seconds, and a nice easy penalty to England.... except that somehow Owens missed all three offences, and allowed Ireland to turn over possession and counter. Had Keith Earls not been having one of the worst games since his Lions debut, then the Irish would probably have scored.

[Jay C]

You missed one of my favourites, as Ireland were deep in the England 22 and attacking just before HT. The 40 was up, but Ireland were in possession. Suddenly, the TJ flagged for a knock-on.

Instead of blowing up and calling half-time, Owens actually asked Poite if he was sure about the knock-on. And when Poite confirmed, Owens again asked "Are you really sure?" Only after getting a SECOND confirmation did he accept the TJ's call.

I do remember just before one of the Irish penalties in the first half (the one that put them on 9 points, I think) that there was an absolutely blatant bit of crossing in the build-up, with POC taking out Thompson off the ball. I wondered how Owens could miss it. On re-watching the game, I realised he hadn't missed it, as a few moments later he can be heard telling Thompson something along the lines of 'That wasn't obstruction, you could have gone round him but you committed to the man'.

An interesting take on it. Apparently, when a runner in an offside position is between the ball-carrier and the defender, it is now up to the DEFENDER to get around him and not up to the offside player to get out of the way.


And - of course - the most obvious offence in the entire game was at 20-9 deep in the Irish half with England attacking. Ball was at the back of an England ruck, and Denis Leamy came charging in the side, and then grabbed hold of the English SH. This slowed down the service (obviously) giving POC time to stick his boot into the ruck and kick it out. Leamy, in front of the kicker, then hacked the ball on. In one very short passage of play - literally about 2m from the ref, who had a clear view - Leamy had come into the side of a ruck, interfered with a SH and chased a kick from an offside position. Three penalty offences inside 3 seconds, and a nice easy penalty to England.... except that somehow Owens missed all three offences, and allowed Ireland to turn over possession and counter. Had Keith Earls not been having one of the worst games since his Lions debut, then the Irish would probably have scored.

Three brilliant observations 4071 that can leave no doubt that the guy is more than a little one eyed.

As I posted earlier, I spent large parts of the game shouting at Owens, but when your third point occured, I nearly lost my voice !!