Is this really an England Team?

[LeicScarlet]

No the question is which two were born in England?
And I still don't know the answer!

Croft and Flood were the only two in that lineup that were born in England.

Hurrah! Good stout Yeoman - excused from HAKA duty

How about "England Globe Trotters" and be done with it

[Cagey Tiger]

This post is about "Is this really an England Team?", it will just take a while to get there.

I have watched the debate between those who wish to comment strongly on RC and MO'C, their selection policy etc. and those who feel that while the views held are quite legitimate, the number of threads on which they appear is becoming boring. The answer to this last view is that the matter is very important and all encompassing.

Well, just to show how all encompassing and on topic it can be if you want it to be...

One could hold the view that as 36 has managed to get into the Saxon's squad and play in all 3 matches with little or no game time since Christmas, if he had been given more game time this year he may well have made MJ's 45 at the expense of Hape (I know, I know, that still leaves Flutey).

I have made this post, not to have a go at anyone, nor to back any particular side, but merely to point out that if one sets one's mind to it, practically any topic could be "harnessed to the cause".

Right, time to come off the fence. Where do I stand? Somewhere between grateful that not all topics are "harnessed to the cause" and grateful that the cause (an important one) does receive a good airing I'll let others decide exactly where.

[Duncan B]

I think to whinge about all those players makes a mockery of argument which is quite legitimate! Shaw just happened to be born in Kenya, Hartley has a very good claim to being English, as do most of them. Manu included. The exception for me are really Hape, Waldrom and a couple of others, wo we know would really have preffered to play for the all blacks...

[Jay C]

Any minute now someone is going to make a stand about national purity.

I hear you jg !

Reading a similar thread on the Daily Torygraph, I have been horrified to see how many racist comments there are compared to those who wish to have the debate on rugby based grounds.

Naive of me - perhaps, but thanks goodness we have not descended to similar levels on here

BTW - my two penneth is that rules is rules & if you are good enough then you will play (assuming MJ wants you, which clearly he doesn't re AA & 12trees ). For example, most Tory bloggers wanted Attwood included, but on current form I would say Botha is ahead of him.

[Ze Stade Fan]

Boring boring boring.

The rules are clear and they qualify so get over it.

Oooooh poor France...

[Smurphswillgetya]

- feeling English is one thing, being English is another.

Would you like to elaborate on what being English is. My parents were not born in this country, my children were born in this country, I feel English and am English as far as I am concerned. Would you like me to take the Norman Tebbit test? Would you consider me foreign if occasionally I had a continental breakfast instead of a full English. Maybe I am Irish because I had a full Irish when I went to Dublin to support the Tigers.

I am totally confused now and have totally lost my identity.

The rules are the rules. If you dont like them do something to change them.

[LeicScarlet]

The statement stands for itself (and in context)

To quote Micheal Lynagh:-
"If you grow up in England, Australia, wherever, you want to play for that country. What annoys me is when people qualify on residency or through grandparents and they say, "This is wonderful, I've always wanted to play for England". Just be honest and say it's about the money".

My own view on foreign mercenaries in International Rugby:-
"It may be squarely within the rules. That doesn't mean I have to like it or think it's in the spirit of international sport."

[G.K]

I see some of you (Purebob, LeicScarlet and Cagey for example) have picked up on the point of my original post, whereas some seem to be interpreting it as having racist overtones, which is disappointing but somewhat expected from some on the forum.

[Smurphswillgetya]

What was your point G.K? Is this really an England Team was your question and the answer is yes because all the players are in the England squad based on the current criteria for selection.

[LeicScarlet]

I think GK's point was not you're point Smurpshwilgetya ..... more is the point

[kingol22]

I dont think players like Hape, Flutey, Botha, Fourie etc should be in the england squad. I have no problem with the likes of hartley, tuilagi etc being in the england squad. The residency rules should be changed and players should have to qualify before they are 20. The only other player people seem to be questioning is waldrom and i dont know what to think about him as i just dont get how you can just suddenly remember your nan was born in england seems a bit strange.

[Smurphswillgetya]

I dont think players like Hape, Flutey, Botha, Fourie etc should be in the england squad. I have no problem with the likes of hartley, tuilagi etc being in the england squad. The residency rules should be changed and players should have to qualify before they are 20. The only other player people seem to be questioning is waldrom and i dont know what to think about him as i just dont get how you can just suddenly remember your nan was born in england seems a bit strange.

Kingol why would you have no problem with Manu. TTE probably has more 'right' than Manu. TTE has an English nan,Manu does not. TTE came to this country legally. Manu came on a visitors visa and became and illegal immigrant and an over-stayer. Any other illegal over-stayer would have been deported and not allowed to apply for a visa for a few years! (though I am glad that Tigers and Manu had the money to play the system )

[Bill W (2)]

Manu came on a visitors visa and became and illegal immigrant and an over-stayer. Any other illegal over-stayer would have been deported and not allowed to apply for a visa for a few years! (though I am glad that Tigers and Manu had the money to play the system )

That is factually incorrect. Procedually he should have returned to Samoa to apply for a visa. Which would then have been granted. There is no "not allowed to apply for a few years" restriction.

[kingol22]

I dont think players like Hape, Flutey, Botha, Fourie etc should be in the england squad. I have no problem with the likes of hartley, tuilagi etc being in the england squad. The residency rules should be changed and players should have to qualify before they are 20. The only other player people seem to be questioning is waldrom and i dont know what to think about him as i just dont get how you can just suddenly remember your nan was born in england seems a bit strange.

Kingol why would you have no problem with Manu. TTE probably has more 'right' than Manu. TTE has an English nan,Manu does not. TTE came to this country legally. Manu came on a visitors visa and became and illegal immigrant and an over-stayer. Any other illegal over-stayer would have been deported and not allowed to apply for a visa for a few years! (though I am glad that Tigers and Manu had the money to play the system )

I have no problem with manu because he has grown up here. I just doubt TTE reasons for wanting to play for england.

[LeicScarlet]

It just shows weakness..... nothing more. Mercenaries for hire!

Politically correct jibes like "Little Englanders" is complete tosh and frankly a very weak defense. Masking English Rugby's real weakness is what its all about.