Is this really an England Team?

Forum to discuss everything that is Tigers related

Moderators: Rizzo, Tigerbeat, Tigers Press Office, Tigers Webmaster

Bill W (2)
Super User
Super User
Posts: 14868
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:23 pm
Location: Essex

Re: Is this really an England Team?

Post by Bill W (2) » Tue Jun 21, 2011 10:53 pm

LeicScarlet wrote: Masking English Rugby's real weakness is what its all about.
And you are going to tell us about this?

And compare and contrast it with Welsh strengths?

Ah no. I thought not!

:smt005
Still keeping the faith!

LeicScarlet
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 5:56 pm
Location: C Sqn HQ, Leics (PAO) Yeo.

Re: Is this really an England Team?

Post by LeicScarlet » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:42 am

Its weakness Bill and you know it .....
A Stradey Scarlet in exile
"Ymlaen Llanelli" - The heart & soul of Welsh Rugby.
>>RWC2011 = Bryce Lawrence (Gone: Saffers v All Blacks) & Alain Rolland (Gone: Wales v All Blacks)<<

rich1576
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 223
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2005 3:38 pm
Location: Uttoxeter
Contact:

Re: Is this really an England Team?

Post by rich1576 » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:12 am

What about the All Blacks. Most of them are not New Zealand born and are poached from the South Pacific Islands.

Malili Muliaina - Salelesi, Samoa
Isaia Toeava - Moto’otua, Samoa
Josevata Rokocoko - Nadi, Fiji
Jerome Kaino - American Samoa

The Aussies are worse. Players not born in Australia:-

George Gregan - Lusaka, Zambia
Quade Cooper - Waikato, New Zealand
David Pocock - Gweru, Zimbabwe
Will Genia - Port Moresby, Papua New Guinea
Matt Dunning - Calgary, Canada
Lote Tuqiri - Korolevu, Fiji
Clyde Rathbone - Durban, South Africa
Jeremy Paul - Hamilton, New Zealand

What really is the big deal. Everyone does it. Those are the rules and if it means picking the best side that is going to bring home the World Cup, I say bring it on.

2 things really annoy me though about this whole topic.

1. The press were getting excited about this great no. 8 Thomas Waldrom possibly being able to play for England and now they're all going ballistic when he gets selected.

2. Luke Narraway. If he was good enough he would have been in the training squad. Problem is Thomas The Tank is a better player.

Duncan B
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1488
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:42 pm
Location: Oxford

Re: Is this really an England Team?

Post by Duncan B » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:17 am

Hey LeicScarlet? Would you like to compare the number of victories over the southrn hemisphere in the last 20 years by our weak england team and your brilliant welsh one?

LeicScarlet
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 5:56 pm
Location: C Sqn HQ, Leics (PAO) Yeo.

Re: Is this really an England Team?

Post by LeicScarlet » Wed Jun 22, 2011 10:48 am

Duncan B wrote:Hey LeicScarlet? Would you like to compare the number of victories over the southrn hemisphere in the last 20 years by our weak england team and your brilliant welsh one?
Lets put things into perspective here, the WRU have approx 50,557 registered players to choose from and New Zealand have 137,835 registered players (thats 2.5 All Blacks to 1 Welshman). The RFU have something like 2.5 Million registered players (50 Englishmen to 1 Welshman)...... now, are you seriously saying that England dont have "real" domestic players?

10 Welsh Grand Slams to 12 English Grand Slams..... I think we are the ones punching above our weight... dont you think?

Its always been acceptable for a player of dubious heritage to play in an International Squad.... and yes Wales have played the odd SH player.... but one at a time.

I stand by my assertion that MJs selection shows weakness..... nothing more. Mercenaries for hire!
Politically correct jibes like "Little Englanders" (by Johno) is complete tosh and frankly a very weak defense. Masking English Rugby's real weakness is what its all about.
Last edited by LeicScarlet on Wed Jun 22, 2011 2:04 pm, edited 7 times in total.
A Stradey Scarlet in exile
"Ymlaen Llanelli" - The heart & soul of Welsh Rugby.
>>RWC2011 = Bryce Lawrence (Gone: Saffers v All Blacks) & Alain Rolland (Gone: Wales v All Blacks)<<

Duncan B
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1488
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:42 pm
Location: Oxford

Post by Duncan B » Wed Jun 22, 2011 11:34 am

Record in the last 20 years isnt too pretty though :smt016 Just playing !

LeicScarlet
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 5:56 pm
Location: C Sqn HQ, Leics (PAO) Yeo.

Re: Is this really an England Team?

Post by LeicScarlet » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:08 pm

Apart from that, what kind of message does this team send to younger English players? 'Don't bother hoping to play for your country - we can always round up a few illegals and mercenaries to pack out the white shirt.'
A Stradey Scarlet in exile
"Ymlaen Llanelli" - The heart & soul of Welsh Rugby.
>>RWC2011 = Bryce Lawrence (Gone: Saffers v All Blacks) & Alain Rolland (Gone: Wales v All Blacks)<<

Granby
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 659
Joined: Thu May 14, 2009 9:51 am

Re: Is this really an England Team?

Post by Granby » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:28 pm

LeicScarlet wrote: Its always been acceptable for a player of dubious heritage to play in an International Squad.... and yes Wales have played the odd SH player.... but one at a time.
Oh, I see, so if England draw up a rota and only play one "illegal or mercenary" at a time, then that is fine. Clearly it is the number involved, not the principle, that troubles you. :smt009
Last edited by Granby on Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Norfolk & Goode
Silver Member
Silver Member
Posts: 508
Joined: Thu Nov 26, 2009 10:07 am

Re: Is this really an England Team?

Post by Norfolk & Goode » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:30 pm

LeicScarlet wrote:Apart from that, what kind of message does this team send to younger English players? 'Don't bother hoping to play for your country - we can always round up a few illegals and mercenaries to pack out the white shirt.'
Keep it sensible LeicScarlet, sounds like your chip is a bit sore. England (like any other country - Wales included) play the best players who make themselves available. Our population level is so high we are bound to get a higher percentage of imports, so what.

The clear message to young English players is that you'll get picked because you qualify and you're the best. The rules are clear on eligibility, ask Toby Faletau, Luke Charteris, George North (Good 'ol Norfolk boy!!) to name but a few :smt002

LeicScarlet
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 5:56 pm
Location: C Sqn HQ, Leics (PAO) Yeo.

Re: Is this really an England Team?

Post by LeicScarlet » Wed Jun 22, 2011 12:52 pm

Re SH shoe ins:- It may be squarely within the IRB rules. That doesn't mean I have to like it or think it's in the spirit of international sport.

BTW.... George North (Scarlets) is Welsh, born in Norfolk yes but from a Welsh family. Not many Norfolk boys speak Welsh do they? Educated at Llandovery college as well. Johnathan Davies (Scarlets) born in Solihull, Welsh speaking also and so on.

This was said on another forum :-
"Personally I disagree with players that aren't one iota English.. qualifying on residency. Hape and Flutey for example are Kiwis through and through and should not be selected for England.
I don't think either are world class enough to be considered over the talent produced at home and it is a sad indictment on the player development, academies and England Saxons if there are no players able to come into the first team in those positions.
I'd rather the England team represented our true strength and if that means we lose then so be it. At least English talent has an incentive to know they will be selected and not overlooked in favour of a foreigner that happens to have lived here long enough."

The Ratio of Englishmen according to "senior" male players for the following:-
1.5 Englishmen to 1 Frenchman
1.5 Englishmen to 1 Spring Bock
4.3 Englishmen to 1 Wallaby
6 Englishmen to 1 All Black
6.5 Englishmen to 1 Irishman
7.5 Englishmen to 1 Welshman
14.2 Englishmen to 1 Scotsman

Correct to current IRB figures BTW and the above just demonstrates the size of the RFU compared to other Unions.
A Stradey Scarlet in exile
"Ymlaen Llanelli" - The heart & soul of Welsh Rugby.
>>RWC2011 = Bryce Lawrence (Gone: Saffers v All Blacks) & Alain Rolland (Gone: Wales v All Blacks)<<

Cagey Tiger
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1820
Joined: Thu Oct 06, 2005 2:27 pm
Location: South Lincolnshire

Re: Is this really an England Team?

Post by Cagey Tiger » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:12 pm

This situation is caused in no small part by a combination of most (not all) countries other than England having a "to play for our country, you have to play club/regional rugby for one of our clubs/regions", along with England having a large top level club tournament, with space for a not insignificant number of foreign players.

I am disappointed, frustrated and annoyed at those (mostly SH) who by their early to mid-20s have come to the conclusion that they will not be selected for their country and then go to another country (England, Italy, Scotland to name a few) with the aim of playing for that country (whether by residency or grandparents or whatever). I have no problem with anyone plying their trade wherever it takes them, but chasing after representative honours in this manner? :smt019

Duncan B
Gold Member
Gold Member
Posts: 1488
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 6:42 pm
Location: Oxford

Re: Is this really an England Team?

Post by Duncan B » Wed Jun 22, 2011 8:27 pm

Sonny Parker, Brent Cockbain, Colin Charvis played England age groups.

Bill W (2)
Super User
Super User
Posts: 14868
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:23 pm
Location: Essex

Re: Is this really an England Team?

Post by Bill W (2) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:11 pm

It was not that long ago (13 years?) that Welsh Management searched the southern hemisphere for anyone with a legitimate or illigitimate Welsh great grandparent.

It was this which lead the IRB to tighten the rules.

Short memories the Welsh.
Still keeping the faith!

LeicScarlet
Senior Member
Senior Member
Posts: 228
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 5:56 pm
Location: C Sqn HQ, Leics (PAO) Yeo.

Re: Is this really an England Team?

Post by LeicScarlet » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:19 pm

Duncan B wrote:Sonny Parker, Brent Cockbain, Colin Charvis played England age groups.
Sonny Parker & Bret Cockbain.... I agree (I remember my reaction at the time and many other Welshmen cursing the WRU under our breath.... especially about Sonny Parker).

Colin Charvis set his stall out right from the start... London Welsh, Swansea etc
Bill W (2) wrote:It was not that long ago (13 years?) that Welsh Management searched the southern hemisphere for anyone with a legitimate or illigitimate Welsh great grandparent.
It was this which lead the IRB to tighten the rules.
Short memories the Welsh.
Not really Bill, we remember them well..... holding our head in our hands at the same time!
A Stradey Scarlet in exile
"Ymlaen Llanelli" - The heart & soul of Welsh Rugby.
>>RWC2011 = Bryce Lawrence (Gone: Saffers v All Blacks) & Alain Rolland (Gone: Wales v All Blacks)<<

Bill W (2)
Super User
Super User
Posts: 14868
Joined: Sat Sep 12, 2009 6:23 pm
Location: Essex

Re: Is this really an England Team?

Post by Bill W (2) » Wed Jun 22, 2011 9:36 pm

LeicScarlet wrote:Not really Bill, we remember them well..... holding our head in our hands at the same time!
And blaming the New Zealand guy who headed up the Welsh International coaching.

Ah. Coaches do not count. They are allowed to be foreigners.

When did England have a non-English coach?
Still keeping the faith!

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Crofty and 2 guests