Billy Twelvetrees and jordan Crane - Eng Saxons - Churchill

[Bill W (2)]

does the fact that he's not a very good 10 mean that he's not going to be great at the 5/8ths role that some think he should have at tigers? he's got a big boot but a 5/8ths should be able to interchange with the 10 easily and he's shown he's not very good at it.

Evidence?

AA is a better 10 than 12T?

[Cardiff Tig]

i know allen is not a better 10 than 12T, but you would never say allen plays a 2nd 5/8 role and allen never will. 12T's times at 10 have never been convincing, but as masopa correctly states, a 2nd 5/8 is not expected to play as the fly half that much during a game and will make life easier for the 10.

i was trying to make the point that the best 2nd 5/8s e.g catt and mauger, were perfectly capable of being played at 10 all game and put in very good performances at 10 on many occasions.

does the fact that people are shouting for 12T to play so he can become a 2nd 5/8ths for tigers show more about the way that flood has been playing?!! as i said d'arcy is more in the allen style of play than an obvious 2nd 5/8 and it asnt done leinster any harm!

[Bill W (2)]

does the fact that people are shouting for 12T to play so he can become a 2nd 5/8ths for tigers show more about the way that flood has been playing?!! as i said d'arcy is more in the allen style of play than an obvious 2nd 5/8 and it asnt done leinster any harm!

An interesting question.

Of course we have no evidence as to how Flood would play with 12T outside him. Or 12T with Flood outside him.

Such evidence might well inform Johnno's decision making.

But alas we (and he) do not have it.

[masopa]

i know allen is not a better 10 than 12T, but you would never say allen plays a 2nd 5/8 role and allen never will. 12T's times at 10 have never been convincing, but as masopa correctly states, a 2nd 5/8 is not expected to play as the fly half that much during a game and will make life easier for the 10.

i was trying to make the point that the best 2nd 5/8s e.g catt and mauger, were perfectly capable of being played at 10 all game and put in very good performances at 10 on many occasions.

does the fact that people are shouting for 12T to play so he can become a 2nd 5/8ths for tigers show more about the way that flood has been playing?!! as i said d'arcy is more in the allen style of play than an obvious 2nd 5/8 and it asnt done leinster any harm!

The reason I'm excited to see it is because 12T actually blends a 5/8th style with that of a (young and inexperienced) Will Greenwood-esque 12. He has fly half skills (which are not completely polished) but is a tall and rangy, pretty solid 12 with long arms and a fantastic long pass. It means he could, theoretically, play in either mould, thereby expanding the range of options open to us even further.

There aren't many (any?) players around of his age who can, potentially, do this. Farrell may possibly be another?

[Smurphswillgetya]

All I will add to the debate is the following:

Masopa excellent posts. Well thought out and argued and makes a change to read something sensible instead of the irrational hysteria.

Cardiff Tig where have you appeared from. Your posts have been sensible as well and worth reading.

Off with their heads. Lol

[masopa]

Cheers... Happy that my dribblings are of some interest to some!

[bluntiger]

All I will add to the debate is the following:

Masopa excellent posts. Well thought out and argued and makes a change to read something sensible instead of the irrational hysteria.

I agree, Masopa's posts have been well thought through and whilst I do not entirely agree with the content, the arguements are compelling. And I would say that the discussion is wholely rational unlike most of the threads over the last 2 years where 12T has been the subject.

It is clear that most people who have contributed come across as frustrated that 12T has not been given more opportunities over the last 2 years and if we are frustrated, then I am sure 12T himself must share some of that frustration. No question he is at the best club, but being there but not playing is little consolation.

But he has signed for this coming season and it will be make-or-break for him this season. I would say that he need to get 10+ starts (AP and/or HC) at 12 this season and he'll be judged on his performances. Further lack of opportunities or if he gets the opportunities but fails to convince and he should look elsewhere.

[Rykard]

But he has signed for this coming season and it will be make-or-break for him this season. I would say that he need to get 10+ starts (AP and/or HC) at 12 this season and he'll be judged on his performances. Further lack of opportunities or if he gets the opportunities but fails to convince and he should look elsewhere.

but with consistency around him also - no good if the players to the left and right are different every game..

[bluntiger]

But he has signed for this coming season and it will be make-or-break for him this season. I would say that he need to get 10+ starts (AP and/or HC) at 12 this season and he'll be judged on his performances. Further lack of opportunities or if he gets the opportunities but fails to convince and he should look elsewhere.

but with consistency around him also - no good if the players to the left and right are different every game..

Apart from 12T himself, is Staunton the only option at 10 (assuming Flood is away at the RWC)? George Ford?

[masopa]

Good point: the slight concern for 12T, if he does get to play, will be the team that's playing around him (or, more specifically, in front of him) at the beginning of the season. The quality of this team will necessarily dictate the overall team tactics. Now, don't get me wrong - I expect it to hold up well and scrape some good wins against tough opposition (especially those who are less affected by international call ups) - but... it will simply not be as strong as when our key players are available.

Specifically, let's look at those who are likely to be away:

Ayerza (depending on how far Argentina progress)
Chuter
Cole
Castro (depending on how far Italy progress)
Deacon
Mafi (depending on Fiji's progression)
Croft
possibly Waldrom
Youngs
Flood
possibly M Tuilagi
A Tuilagi (depending on Samoa's progression)
Geordan (if still injured)

Apologies if I've missed anyone (I probably have) but if we look at those in bold, specifically, they are usually responsible for generating (or maintaining) good quality ball for the three quarters etc. I'm sorry to say it, but the guys coming in to replace them will undoubtedly do a great job, but they are, by definition, second string and will, in general, not be as good as those they are standing in for.

So, had we not signed Mickey Young, the outcome for Billy (or whoever is playing at 12 in October) would be that after slower ball is finally secured by a largely second-string set of forwards, we'd have Grindall shovelling it on to Staunton, who'll either kick it or pass it straight on to Billy (if he's at 12). From what I recall of this season, Grindall doesn't tend to snipe much, so the opposition back row will know to hunt Staunton down, which will mean he'll either stand much deeper and kick it (and Billy will get no ball) or he'll stand a bit deeper and shovel it down the line (in which case Billy will get the ball at much the same time as the charging defensive line reaches him AND he'll be 10 yards behind the gainline).

However, with MY at 9, we should have a running scrum half who can keep the opposition guessing more. This should give Staunton a fraction more time, allowing him to stand a little flatter and bring the 12 into the game. I would certainly argue for Billy at 12 since, as I've already explained, having a 9-10-12, all of whom can kick and a 10 & 12 who can interchange at pivot will give us so many more options, keep the opposition uncertain how they should defend and therefore give everyone more time for correct decision making and, critically, allow our backs to get over the gainline more easily - something that will be so important with a second-string set of forwards.

Of course, Billy could be shoehorned into 10 (which will presumably happen if Staunton is ever injured while Floody is away), but that just puts him in that unenviable position of having slowish ball and not being a natural 10. If this happens, I wouldn't be surprised to see RC revert to type and drop him again once Floody is back.

[Luke]

Allen is currently a better 12 than Twelvetrees

Allen has reached his optimum level

Twelvetrees has yet to reach his optimum level

Twelvetrees has the potential to be a better 12 than Allen

Cockerill keeps his job if he wins games

Cockerill loses his job if he loses games

ergo

For Cockerill to keep his job now he plays Allen

For Cockerill to keep his job in the future he may need to play Twelvetrees

"There is no point having development and not winning and the balance of that is really difficult" (Richard Cockerill, Feb 2011)

[Cardiff Tig]

Good point: the slight concern for 12T, if he does get to play, will be the team that's playing around him (or, more specifically, in front of him) at the beginning of the season. The quality of this team will necessarily dictate the overall team tactics. Now, don't get me wrong - I expect it to hold up well and scrape some good wins against tough opposition (especially those who are less affected by international call ups) - but... it will simply not be as strong as when our key players are available.

im not sure its too bad a thing if 12T gets picked behind a weaker pack, if anything it should be to his advantage if he can get used to it and put in sme good performances. other players at tigers seem to have got used to a pack that is on top all the time - BY seems to struggle a lot against the top teams when we havnt got a forward dominance i.e. leinster, sarries and ireland when he was playin for england. i know reffing the offside more strictly helps the scrum half and that plays apart aswel. i think grindal gets a lot of unfair stick sometimes on here, he's definately not as good as BY but in lots of his games he never seems to get quick ball from his forwards and does a lot of clean up at the rucks. grindal does seem to at least cope slightly better when the forwards are going backwards, where as BY seems to go AWOL a bit.

[taffyboiy]

I know we're now some way off-topic, but I have to agree with the 'horses for courses' comments on here. On other topics it's been noted that Cole and Castro have very different success rates against various different opposition props, and for that reason the coaches really ought to pick the one which will be most successful game to game. I don't see why the same principle can't be applied across the whole XV. We've clearly got the best *squad* in the AP, (and by that I mean, with a few exceptions, 2 or even 3 players per position who can do a damn good job) so why don't we use it, and come up with a few ways to play. If nothing else it will give the opposition coaches nightmares about which defensive style to practice in the week. I don't really buy the 'squad rotation ruins continuity' argument - especially in a season as disrupted by injury and international call-ups as ours - we should get used to turning out quite different sides week-to-week.