From some of the posts one would imagine that this was the first season we ended with no trophies. Look at the facts:
2005: Premiership final Wasps 39 Tigers 14
Heineken Cup semi Tigers 19 Toulouse 27
2006: Premiership final Sale 45 Tigers 20
Heineken 1/4 Tigers 12 Bath 15
2008: Premiership final Tigers 9 Wasps 29
Heineken - did not get out of group stage
Although we have had great success in the past we have also experienced plenty of disappointments and Cockerill and O'Connor werenot to blame for those.
Well Cockers!!
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Re: Well Cockers!!
tf22
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Bill W (2)
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Re: Well Cockers!!
Can you please stop doing blame.beech wrote: Although we have had great success in the past we have also experienced plenty of disappointments and Cockerill and O'Connor werenot to blame for those.
No one is blaming anyone for anything.
We are seeking, by analysing the weaknesses, to determine what has to be done differently to achieve greater success.
Still keeping the faith!
Re: Well Cockers!!
I dont think most of the people on here are calling for the heads of cockers and O"Conner and nor should they, i just think they should not be so conservative with the selections, stop going for the safe options, ie, Staunton, Grindal etc, stop picking their favourites and give young players some game time ie Twelvetrees, Ford etc. Sarries have gone with a 19 yearold flyhalf and look what happened but you have got to give players a chance, if your good enough your old enough.
Re: Well Cockers!!
All very well telling Cockers to go for the youngsters but judging by how many here are responding to their "failure" this season can you really blame them for opting for what they feel is the safer option.
Tiger supporters do not accept a transition season but to be honest come next year I would like to see a few changes to the team that might be a step back in quality in the short term but in the longer picture (and hopefully come the play offs at the end of the season) they will start to pay dividends. I know many would disagree but I would like to see the following:
Tom Youngs really bloodied early and often at hooker. He will have the pace and hands of a back and if we could develop a Brits type player it would be fairly useful!
Kitchener and Parling as main locks going forward (I like Deacon but I don't feel he will last much longer).
Mafi developed into a 7. He is too light weight for lock but is too good a talent to ignore. Has speed, great hands to act as a link man, great in the line out and his clearing out and ability to turnover ball is highly under rated.
Billy in at 12. Allen is a better player as of today but Billy could quickly turn into international standard.
Tait at 15. GM was struggling a bit this season pre injury and we need pace in the back line. Tait tore up the Springboks defence on his own so has obvious pedigree if we can exploit it. Maybe use GM in a player / coach type role. His body may now struggle with week on week rugby but he has a great brain and could help sculpture and coach what would be a very young backline. I can't think of a better man for the job.
Alex and Smithy on wings to give power and pace.
Tiger supporters do not accept a transition season but to be honest come next year I would like to see a few changes to the team that might be a step back in quality in the short term but in the longer picture (and hopefully come the play offs at the end of the season) they will start to pay dividends. I know many would disagree but I would like to see the following:
Tom Youngs really bloodied early and often at hooker. He will have the pace and hands of a back and if we could develop a Brits type player it would be fairly useful!
Kitchener and Parling as main locks going forward (I like Deacon but I don't feel he will last much longer).
Mafi developed into a 7. He is too light weight for lock but is too good a talent to ignore. Has speed, great hands to act as a link man, great in the line out and his clearing out and ability to turnover ball is highly under rated.
Billy in at 12. Allen is a better player as of today but Billy could quickly turn into international standard.
Tait at 15. GM was struggling a bit this season pre injury and we need pace in the back line. Tait tore up the Springboks defence on his own so has obvious pedigree if we can exploit it. Maybe use GM in a player / coach type role. His body may now struggle with week on week rugby but he has a great brain and could help sculpture and coach what would be a very young backline. I can't think of a better man for the job.
Alex and Smithy on wings to give power and pace.
Re: Well Cockers!!
I am amazed that Bill(W) says that no one is blaming anyone. The number of posts that are pointing the finger at Cockerill and O'Conner would contradict this. By the way I was agree that the blame culture is wrong and nothing in my posts blames anyone - except, perhaps, the people who have a selective memory and believe that the past has been a succession of glorious victories. We have experienced some embarrassing defeats in the past by much bigger margins than we have this year
tf22
Re: Well Cockers!!
I think - & you have to read between the lines of some of the posts - that we all want the same thing, namely a successful Tigers team.
This thread should be about how we can achieve that.
We have a very talented squad, despite the salary cap - the envy of many clubs - and for that Cockers should be applauded.
We came very close to snatching the title (and were also close to a home HC 1/4 final and then who knows...) and for that Cockers should be applauded.
I also believe we had enough talent to win silverware - even with our injury problems (notably Parling/Deacs and expecially Geordie) - and for that Cockers should be applauded.
We have not performed up to the level that the above platform has given us - and for that we should seek answers, with Cockers being the first in line ....
I - as with most of you - will be there next season to see if lessons have been learnt - and to cheer on the team !!!
This thread should be about how we can achieve that.
We have a very talented squad, despite the salary cap - the envy of many clubs - and for that Cockers should be applauded.
We came very close to snatching the title (and were also close to a home HC 1/4 final and then who knows...) and for that Cockers should be applauded.
I also believe we had enough talent to win silverware - even with our injury problems (notably Parling/Deacs and expecially Geordie) - and for that Cockers should be applauded.
We have not performed up to the level that the above platform has given us - and for that we should seek answers, with Cockers being the first in line ....
I - as with most of you - will be there next season to see if lessons have been learnt - and to cheer on the team !!!
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Bill W (2)
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Re: Well Cockers!!
You shouldn't be.beech wrote:I am amazed that Bill(W) says that no one is blaming anyone.
I am merely one of those who wishes the club to move forward and do whatever is necessary to get closer to its objectives.
There is a world of difference between criticism and blame.
Failure to identify weaknesses leads to complacency and mediocrity.
Still keeping the faith!
Re: Well Cockers!!
Very well put Jay C I agree especially with the last sentence.
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Re: Well Cockers!!
Depends on your point of view. What you perceive as apportioning blame others may view as constructive criticism and advice.I am amazed that Bill(W) says that no one is blaming anyone. The number of posts that are pointing the finger at Cockerill and O'Conner would contradict this.
What you may see as a knee jerk reaction to a defeat others may have formed as an informed opinion from observation all season, not just in response to the bitter taste of defeat.
If an organisation 'fails' and by Cockerills own previous admission if Tigers don't win Silverware then that is considered failure. And when an organisation fails you usually start by analysing the performance of the people at the top.
Re: Well Cockers!!
Well said MrE and last season too!MrE wrote:Oh dear, all of a sudden the Tigers realise that that thier devine right to a trophy every year was all in thier heads and acctually they have to earn one.
Stop moaning about finishing top but still having to go through the play off's its the same for all the teams Tigers have ambushed over the years.
And it IS time to Cockerill to go, not because you lost today but because he has run out of ideas,everyone knows how to stop Tigers but today you came up against a team that could acctually do it,as they have done all season.
Whoever said "one person cannot change the world' never ate undercooked bat
Re: Well Cockers!!
Most of the criticisms on here are not simply knee jerk reactions to one defeat, and they are not personal attacks on individual players.
They are however constructive well reasoned comments which identify those issues/problems which many believe are limiting the development of many of our players and the future success of our club.
Whilst I have not played or coached high standard rugby, I have played and coached (with coaching qualifications) for many years a high standard in other sports
There are people on this forum far more able than I to analyse the Rugby detail, masopa, jgriffin, billw, 4071 etc. and so much of what they say makes sense.
In this professional era the DOR and Head Coach roles are very difficult and I’m afraid extremely tenuous, but it goes with the territory, particularly when the club is Leicester Tigers.
As I’ve said above these are not knee jerk reactions to one game it is a considered response to a season full of mystifying decisions, below par performances and lack of development.
To those who point to us finishing top and say we should be satisfied (this includes Cockerill), I respond what games have you been watching? I have attended every home game and most away games, and I can tell you that we were extremely fortunate to win a significant number of those games, e.g. Exeter, London Irish at home and Sale, Leeds, away, had those games gone the same way as Saturday we wouldn’t have finished in the playoffs.
Passion and self belief are just two of the necessary qualities required for a DOR/Head Coach, but when that passion spills over into unacceptable behaviour, blinds you to other alternatives and when self belief becomes downright cussed stubbornness and a refusal to even consider that you may be wrong, then that is cause for concern that the DOR/Head Coach are the right for the job.
If these issues were isolated incidents, such as one preferred selection over another then it might be acceptable, but when they have a consistent theme running through them over a period of time then there is a problem, a problem that needs fixing. As far as I have observed no one, including me, is yet calling for Richard Cockerill to be sacked, but there are problems he needs to address and he may not be up to resolving them on his own, in which case he needs help and advice, or maybe something a bit stronger than advice, leadership.
They are however constructive well reasoned comments which identify those issues/problems which many believe are limiting the development of many of our players and the future success of our club.
Whilst I have not played or coached high standard rugby, I have played and coached (with coaching qualifications) for many years a high standard in other sports
There are people on this forum far more able than I to analyse the Rugby detail, masopa, jgriffin, billw, 4071 etc. and so much of what they say makes sense.
In this professional era the DOR and Head Coach roles are very difficult and I’m afraid extremely tenuous, but it goes with the territory, particularly when the club is Leicester Tigers.
As I’ve said above these are not knee jerk reactions to one game it is a considered response to a season full of mystifying decisions, below par performances and lack of development.
To those who point to us finishing top and say we should be satisfied (this includes Cockerill), I respond what games have you been watching? I have attended every home game and most away games, and I can tell you that we were extremely fortunate to win a significant number of those games, e.g. Exeter, London Irish at home and Sale, Leeds, away, had those games gone the same way as Saturday we wouldn’t have finished in the playoffs.
Passion and self belief are just two of the necessary qualities required for a DOR/Head Coach, but when that passion spills over into unacceptable behaviour, blinds you to other alternatives and when self belief becomes downright cussed stubbornness and a refusal to even consider that you may be wrong, then that is cause for concern that the DOR/Head Coach are the right for the job.
If these issues were isolated incidents, such as one preferred selection over another then it might be acceptable, but when they have a consistent theme running through them over a period of time then there is a problem, a problem that needs fixing. As far as I have observed no one, including me, is yet calling for Richard Cockerill to be sacked, but there are problems he needs to address and he may not be up to resolving them on his own, in which case he needs help and advice, or maybe something a bit stronger than advice, leadership.
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Bill W (2)
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Re: Well Cockers!!
Well said Crumblies. We are of like mind.Crumblies wrote:If these issues were isolated incidents, such as one preferred selection over another then it might be acceptable, but when they have a consistent theme running through them over a period of time then there is a problem, a problem that needs fixing. As far as I have observed no one, including me, is yet calling for Richard Cockerill to be sacked, but there are problems he needs to address and he may not be up to resolving them on his own, in which case he needs help and advice, or maybe something a bit stronger than advice, leadership.
Still keeping the faith!
Re: Well Cockers!!
g wrote:Your season of conservatism has backfired on you.
100 tries worth of conservatism
Time for the door.
Only for you....
And don't anyone say to me we finished top,Cockerills persistence to play the plodders and refusal to pick the flair players has truly come back to bite him.
see 100 tries comment
It shows playing in a conservative way and sticking with the safe option when it comes to players he picks didn't work.
and again - more informed, intelligent analysis..
Less is more....
Re: Well Cockers!!
I'm suprised that so many experienced posters, who's opinions I normally find to be very informed, have gone with the knee-jerk reaction of "sack Cockerill".
There are a few points here:
1) If we had won, would you be calling for his head? No. We didn't turn up in one match and lost. 2 kickable penalties missed, as the difference between having a job and being sacked? Get real. If we had won, you would be calling it a good season and issuing hearty pats on the back all round - this season has been a mixed bag of tricks, but plenty of good points to take forward.
2) Going on from above, it's how we move on from here. Evolution or revolution? I believe the best way is to take the lessons from this season and apply them next year, rather than replacing key individuals which may change the entire attitude of the team.
3) If we did bring in a new coach, it couldn't just be anyone. Leicester are at their best when we have one of our own leading (Richards, Howard, and even now, Cockers). We don't function with imports (Meyer, Loffreda). Name me someone who understands the Tigers culture who would be qualified to take over and take Tigers forwards. The only two names that spring to mind are Richards and Back, and I can't see them being here any time soon.
Stick with Cockers, let's evolve and move on. If lessons aren't learnt, then that is the time for knife sharpening.
There are a few points here:
1) If we had won, would you be calling for his head? No. We didn't turn up in one match and lost. 2 kickable penalties missed, as the difference between having a job and being sacked? Get real. If we had won, you would be calling it a good season and issuing hearty pats on the back all round - this season has been a mixed bag of tricks, but plenty of good points to take forward.
2) Going on from above, it's how we move on from here. Evolution or revolution? I believe the best way is to take the lessons from this season and apply them next year, rather than replacing key individuals which may change the entire attitude of the team.
3) If we did bring in a new coach, it couldn't just be anyone. Leicester are at their best when we have one of our own leading (Richards, Howard, and even now, Cockers). We don't function with imports (Meyer, Loffreda). Name me someone who understands the Tigers culture who would be qualified to take over and take Tigers forwards. The only two names that spring to mind are Richards and Back, and I can't see them being here any time soon.
Stick with Cockers, let's evolve and move on. If lessons aren't learnt, then that is the time for knife sharpening.