Well Cockers!!

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beech
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Re: Well Cockers!!

Post by beech » Mon May 30, 2011 12:07 pm

I am amazed that some who are complaining about our performance this season are talking about the glory days of Deano's era. His record was excellent until the 2003/04 season. When we played Gloucester on 3rd January, and lost 28-18, we were 9th in the league having won 5 and lost 7 and had been thrashed by Ulster 33-0. Please don't rewrite history.

At times we all think that we know better than the coach but in the end it's the players who must perform on the day. It's true that Saracens beat us 3 times this season but on two occasions - at Welford Road and Twickenham - the results would have been different if 'straightforward' penalties had been kicked. Of course we are disappointed but supporters of ten other teams would have been delighted to have got to Twickenham.
tf22

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Re: Well Cockers!!

Post by rich1576 » Mon May 30, 2011 1:06 pm

I think it's a bit strong to ask for Cockers' head, but I would like to ask him a few questions about Saturday. These are namely:-

1. Why won't he play Thomas Waldrom and Rob Hawkins from the start? They are the better players in those positions. Why has he dropped Waldrom to the bench ever since he declared his interest to play for England? He is even the player's player of the season.

2. Why hasn't he played Dan Hipkiss ever since he announced his move to Bath? With the absence of Manu Tuilagi on Saturday, Dan should have been in the starting line up or at least on the bench. It was the same when Sam Vesty announced his departure.

Bill W (2)
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Re: Well Cockers!!

Post by Bill W (2) » Mon May 30, 2011 3:32 pm

jgriffin wrote:
beech wrote:I am amazed that some who are complaining about our performance this season..... Of course we are disappointed but supporters of ten other teams would have been delighted to have got to Twickenham.
That is the problem - how far expectations have slipped!
Only part of the problem jg.

And thankfully those of the Board (expectations) have not slipped insofar as I am aware.
Still keeping the faith!

westwinds31
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Re: Well Cockers!!

Post by westwinds31 » Mon May 30, 2011 5:08 pm

beech...you are spot on and at last some sense of proportion about all of this. On the question of being beaten 3 times this season by Sarries...lost in the league both times, once with a losing bonus point in Watford with nothing like a full team, and then should have won at home. Then Saturday with a lacklustre, lethargic performance...we nearly beat them again ! So if this is Saracens at their best then we haven't got much to tweak to beat them. On the subject of Cockers, is there such a thing as a coach who is fully respected by everyone ? Those of you who are in charge of people know that you can't please everyone, there is always someone who won't be happy. The suggestion to bring Meehan in is ludicrous.

I'm as disappointed as the next person...if we'd have played to the best of our ability and lost, fair play. The fact that we left 20-30% in the changing room makes it a hard defeat to take...and we still could have won it !

Parling and Murphy back next season, with Brookes, Young, Tait and Kitchener...I'm optimistic that we can mount a challenge yet again.

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Re: Well Cockers!!

Post by TigerAlex » Mon May 30, 2011 5:27 pm

I very strongly believe that now is not the right time for changes at the top. Next season is going to be very disrupted because of the World Cup. I know it finishes in September, but, given that all of the players we're sending off will have effectively already played a full season without much of a break, the international contingent probably won't be put straight back into the first XV even if there are no injuries. Some might call it an excuse, but someone said that we'd be losing around 13 first team players which is no small problem to overcome. Given this, is it really going to be a good idea to bring in new coaches who don't know the ins and outs of the squad and don't know the players and what they're capable of when most of the senior squad is going to be missing already? This isn't to say that I'm completely happy with this season- I too have been very frustrated by the lethargy of some performances and whilst I understand the omission of Twelvetrees from various squads, I would really have liked to have seen more of Hawkins given the apparent decline of Chuter's form. However, whatever you think of Cockerill and O'Connor, they are the best placed people to try and make a decent fist of next season. If the Peters were to bring in a new Director of Rugby or a new Head Coach based on a failed final this year, I would be very surprised if the replacement(s) were still in the job for the 2012/2013 season.

Bill W (2)
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Re: Well Cockers!!

Post by Bill W (2) » Mon May 30, 2011 5:30 pm

westwinds31 wrote:Parling and Murphy back next season, with Brookes, Young, Tait and Kitchener...I'm optimistic that we can mount a challenge yet again.
Do not misunderstand me. I believe we had the players who could have achieved much more this season.

And I too am optimistic that with the new arrivals and return of others we could mount a challenge next season.

Providing we use all the talent available and have adaptive game plans.
Still keeping the faith!

Bristol Tiger
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Re: Well Cockers!!

Post by Bristol Tiger » Mon May 30, 2011 9:05 pm

Don't think we need wholesale coaching changes but do think we need some fresh ideas in the mix. Given that Cockerill is actually DoR, we currently have (in theory) only one "general play" coach - O'Connor (our other coaches being specialists - so kicking, scrummage, lineout, etc.).

Would love to see an attack coach added to the team; maybe a defense coach too. An attack coach could help our forwards game (faster ruck ball; more offloads; better supporting runners; better forward/backs link play) as well as getting a few more moves/better running angles from our backs.

Would mean Cockers needs to really focus on the DoR role and not just have the title and then act as Head Coach ...

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Re: Well Cockers!!

Post by Bill W (2) » Mon May 30, 2011 9:38 pm

Bristol Tiger wrote:Don't think we need wholesale coaching changes but do think we need some fresh ideas in the mix. Given that Cockerill is actually DoR, we currently have (in theory) only one "general play" coach - O'Connor (our other coaches being specialists - so kicking, scrummage, lineout, etc.).

Would love to see an attack coach added to the team; maybe a defense coach too. An attack coach could help our forwards game (faster ruck ball; more offloads; better supporting runners; better forward/backs link play) as well as getting a few more moves/better running angles from our backs.

Would mean Cockers needs to really focus on the DoR role and not just have the title and then act as Head Coach ...
I feel sure you will have read all the posts on this and other threads Bristol Tiger.

Your suggestions are sensible.

Who though would be acceptable to Cockers and O'Connor? Would they have to be imposed (unlikely to be a recipe for success).

Beneath the "we have failed to win silverware" headline there are the issues of not using the talents in the (full) squad; poor selection; poor substitutions and lack of adaptable game plans.

Can these really be because Cockers and O'Connor have not had sufficient time to consider the issues? And that one or more extra pair of hands would solve these problems?

If it is did they recommend to the Board such appointments and have their recommendations rejected?

I would suspect that both Geordan and Deacs, both on one leg, could have advocated different lines of running for the threes and alternative support play from the forwards respectively. Were they consulted?

I am very uneasy.
Still keeping the faith!

beech
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Re: Well Cockers!!

Post by beech » Mon May 30, 2011 9:42 pm

I am sorry but I find the reaction of some quite depressing. My expectations are as high as anyones but I also try to be realistic. The task of winning silverware gets harder every season, as it should be. Tigers do not have a divine right to win everything and if we give that impression we will rightly classed as arrogant. No other team in the league could have performed as well as Tigers this season with Murphy and Parling out and Ellis and Blaze having to retire - add to that other more short term injuries and international call-ups.

To call for Cockerill and O'Connor to go makes us sound like football supporters - let's see the players who are coming in and then decide whether the coaching staff have their confidence.
tf22

mol2
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Re: Well Cockers!!

Post by mol2 » Mon May 30, 2011 9:52 pm

martynsmiffss wrote:I think our inability to beat the better teams this season is less to do with coaching and more to do with us not having enough high quality players in key roles.

In the spine of the team we are short of a top class hooker and we do not seem to be able to dictate the game from our current 10/12 fulcrum. Whilst injury and international call ups should be taken into account have we really replaced some of the quality players who have left/retired our the last 2-3 years and why not ?

Is it really about the salary cap or just that after building the Cat stand and not being able to fill it on a regular basis means that our business needs are to balance the books rather than invest in the playing side ?

Whilst our current playing staff may be good enough for the premiership (we weren't that far from winning last Saturday) I cannot see us winning the HC without improving the quality of the squad in several areas.

In addition to a hooker we need an enforcer in the second row we have too many "Line Out Lords" and not enough grunt in that area. We need a back row player who will win the ball on the ground possibly a good old fashioned 7, we have not adequately replaced Back/Jennings/Moody. We need to look at 10/12 duo who create and dictate more, how we miss Aaron Mauger !! Oh and we need some gas as well as power in the back three. Can't see Geordan Murphy lasting too many seasons and we have missed his attacking flair from 15

Well that's my opinion for what it is worth and as a ex junior rugby club player probably not a lot :smt002
Whilst I concur with many of your points - I'm not sure we have a lack of high quality individuals - how many of the Saracens team would displace their opposite number in the Tigers' side. No2 & No7 certainly and Toby's kicking was pressy inept but we know he can do better.
I'm not sure we lack grunt in the second row - we just keep handicapping the pack by persisting with Chuter who is too small, slow and lacking in scrummaging power.
Getting run over by Britts - himself a lightweight hooker (that's why he isn't in the SA reconning) rather clearly illustrated why many of us have been frustrated by the lack of chances for Hawkins. Why did we let Ben Kayser go?

Otherwise it's down to tactics. We look a bit like Munster did once they passed their peak - they had no plan B when the opposition stood up to the pack.

We do need more pace - on the wing or full back to give threat to our licking/chasing game.

Bill W (2)
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Re: Well Cockers!!

Post by Bill W (2) » Mon May 30, 2011 9:59 pm

Beech

You are absolutely right. We do not have a divine right to win everything.

It has to be worked for and the strategies and tactics to achieved it developed.

Cockers and O'Connor IMHO failed in this last season. So the question is what do they need to do differently next season? Do they need help in devoping game plans, selection strategies and substitution tactics? What sort of help? Does this help have to be imposed or will they ask for it? Do they realise that it is needed?

If they follow the same methodolgy next season they may well swear a lot and upset those within earshot. They will also leave too much talent out of the playing squad and fail to utilise the bench effectively. They will also have Plan A and no Plan B and fail to enable the leaders on the field to call the necessary tactical shifts in game plan.

We might finish in the top four in the league and get to compete in the play-offs. We might even get to the semis in the HC.

But as sure as G*d made little apples we will not win all three cups. And that, remember, is the objective!
Still keeping the faith!

scrambo
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Re: Well Cockers!!

Post by scrambo » Mon May 30, 2011 10:01 pm

I actually thought we had a good season. Doesnt it get boring to expect us to win all the time? Personally i think it makes it more exciting if we dont always win. We looked tired saturday and to be honest i think there is too much rugby in the season. Maybe one of the cups should be dropped so there arent so many games? We have the key players and good players to fall back on when the key ones arent available but sadly due to the amount of cups & the game becoming more physical (it seems) etc more injuries are occuring, it makes it tough on those who are available and so are used to the point of being exhausted.

Our defensive line wasnt as good as it has been in past seasons almost non existent with players sometimes being too narrow. The sarries defense was awesome saturday...pretty much like tigers defense used to be. Awesome lines and always in our faces. At the end of the day they deserved the win as much as we all hate to admit it. Now is the time for the lads to chill for a bit & then focus on next season when pre-season training starts. Place yourself in their shoes and remember its hard work to play a game or sometimes 2 every week. Yes they are pros and are meant to be able to take it but its a tough game. They cant be perfect all the time. Next season im sure tigers will come back stronger and we'll be behind them for every high and low of next season.

Remember We still hold records that are yet to be beaten. Be proud of your team and be happy we made through to the final. Show your colours with pride and bring on the next season!

Bill W (2)
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Re: Well Cockers!!

Post by Bill W (2) » Mon May 30, 2011 10:11 pm

scrambo wrote:I actually thought we had a good season.

We failed to win any silverware. That is not good!
Show your colours with pride and bring on the next season!

Rest assured I will!
Still keeping the faith!

wasps_fan_uk
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Re: Well Cockers!!

Post by wasps_fan_uk » Mon May 30, 2011 10:16 pm

are u kidding me?

U lot should try and be a wasps fan for the past 2 years. To all the tigers wanting to get rid of cockers, ARE U MAD?. As a wasps fan we havent been in the top 4 since we beat u guys. And this year we finshed 9th. Trust me u dont know how good u have got it. ps i am married to a tigers supporter

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