Red Cards

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Bill W (2)
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Red Cards

Post by Bill W (2) »

The number of red cards given by referees is very few. These include "automatic" red cards when a second yellow card is shown.

A red card automatically results in a disciplinary hearing. It is not unknown for the panel to conclude that the red card was adequate punishment.

A citing is made when in the opinion of the citing officer is that the referee should have awarded a red card. Quite often these are for incidents that the referee saw and awarded a lesser punishment - sometimes a yellow card, sometimes merely a penalty. More often than not the citing is judged by the disciplinary panel to have been justified - i.e. the referee should have awarded a red card.

A yellow card itself may affect the outcome of a game. Usually the side having the one man advantage do score during the 10 minutes. A red card is likely to affect the outcome of the game more than a yellow (unless awarded less than 10 minutes from "no side").

And yet in the opinion of citing officers and disciplinary panels referees are not awarding enough red cards - or (with their assistants) are blind to offences that required a red card.

Is this not an indictment on referees (and their assistants)?

Or is it that referees (and their assistants) more realistically assess the effect the offence had or might have on the outcome of the game? In which case the disciplinary panels and citing officers are operating to a different set of standards.

Your thoughts?

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TigerAlex
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Re: Red Cards

Post by TigerAlex »

I think it's because referees are afraid of influencing the outcome of a game too much (which sounds a bit odd). But to give a recent example- Ayerza and Marler's red cards. Personally, I think it was the correct decision, as did the citing commissioner and the disciplinary panel. However, there were several on both sides saying that giving the red cards was a wrong decision because it 'spoilt the game' or made the game ridiculous by reducing it to 14 v 13 or 12 or whatever it was. This is the crux of the issue. Referees are graded on how they manage the game more than how they enforce the laws. If a referee wields the red card, there is a very real danger that his decision will be moaned at ad infinitum, that his assessor will say that he ruined the game as a spectacle and that could in turn have implications for said referee's career. Whilst yellow cards and penalties also influence games, their effect is much less than potentially reducing a team to 14 for a long period of the game. I would actually be interested to see some statistics showing at what point in games the red cards are awarded. I suspect that had the Manu-Ashton incident happened towards the end of the game, the assistant ref might have more seriously thought about recommending a red card to Manu.
Last edited by TigerAlex on Sun May 15, 2011 11:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Moose
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Re: Red Cards

Post by Moose »

I think there's a definite conflict between what the various disciplinary bodies are saying and doing, but perhaps is indicative of the confusion that appears to be prevalent from the RFU down in terms of refereeing and related matters. By this I mean that we constantly see varying interpretations of the laws from different referees, seemingly based on their training, their experience of their respective primary competitions and perhaps their own personalities - why should this inconsistency be any different between the higher ups and those enforcing the rulings?
A small part of me also wonders if the RFU are pragmatic enough to realise that whilst they need to be seen to be condemning red card behaviour (and rightly so) for PR purposes and to keep the support of the game as a whole going, referees aren't going to be able to red card every eligible offence as games could relatively quickly end up as a 7's match. We therefore end up with one of my least favourite phrases - game management. In my opinion (for what it's worth) a referee has no business managing a game - that is for the players to do. If a referee is being compelled to bend those laws as they are impractical or fundamentally broken, then they need to be looked at.
gimme
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Re: Red Cards

Post by gimme »

I think the system works well Bill, even though the yellow is thrown about too often when a straight red should be used, but that is where th citing officer is vital, split second decisions are needed but these can be hard to get right all the time. The days of reffing when I loved to have even 1 touch judge are a nice memory, no leagues in those days, but nor the intensity of the modern game. This is a good system but the occasional mess up will always happen, this is a good example of it not quite being right, but sure as eggs are eggs, it will be corrected and Manu will face the firing squad and whatver it throws at him, at least he didn`t do anything sneaky and underhanded as some calculating beggers do. :smt023
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Bill W (2)
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Re: Red Cards

Post by Bill W (2) »

Useful input guys.

Should the referee not consider the impact of the "red card offence" though?

If it clearly results in the victim not scoring a try (although in that case the ref could award a penalty try) but more significantly leaving the field of play through injury then maybe a red card is fully warranted whereas if it merely damages his dignity maybe it was not so serious and a penalty/yellow is adequate?

The current procedures are not effective. Citings are commonplace - with the resulting disciplinary hearings and bans. Referees are (it appears) loathe to issue red cards.

Surely the objective should be to reduce foul play, shouldn't it?

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Tigerbeat
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Re: Red Cards

Post by Tigerbeat »

I fully believe that the referees are a bit nervous about using the red card, for whatever reason.
Nowadays, players can not get away with much serious foul play as there are so many cameras focussing on the match.
Some refs seem to hope and rely on the citing officer coming into play and applying and charges that are required.
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mol2
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Re: Red Cards

Post by mol2 »

Citing oficials have the benefit of hindsight and all the video evidence.
The refs/assisstants only get one chance to see it- which they may miss or be uncertain. Prticularly if the incident is off the ball. Red carding a player unless you've had a clear view of the incident is difficult because of the impact it might have on the game.

We all know how many yellows go to the wrong player.
DickyP
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Re: Red Cards

Post by DickyP »

I rather like the Aussie Rules system - there is no, and never has been, such thing as sending off. You merely get put on report.

Or the US Football system, where although a player may get 'thrown out of the game' they never play with other than 11 men.

I personally dislike any form of sanction that makes the game unequal - I've never seen the achievement in scoring 'cheap' points, and I'd get rid of cards completely and go with the American Football method.
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Bill W (2)
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Re: Red Cards

Post by Bill W (2) »

A very useful set of replies.

I know the journos read the forum.

I doubt the refs do.

Perhaps we might see the journos discuss the topic rather than make comments about the failings of Refs and their Assistants?
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Re: Red Cards

Post by colviletiger »

Bill, I think you're right about pundits and journo's but they have the benefit of reviewing all of this from the luxury of a nice studio or press box with countless video replays, interesting to see that the replay of Manu's punch was not shown on the screen at WR until after the decision to card them was made. If we had not had the countless slow motion views of Manu's punch it would not have been such a big deal.
Refs are always at a technological disadvantage to pundits and TV spectators as they don't see what we see.. Lets not forget, generally refs make less mistakes than players
mightymouse
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Re: Red Cards

Post by mightymouse »

The fact is that the AR however much in line with something he may not be looking at it especially in an off the ball incident like this.

The AR one assumes is following the play ( the ball) - Out of his peripheral vision he sees 2 players swinging arms at each other - he probably doesn't know what caused it or who started it - and unless you a looking directly at it cannot asses the level of violence by each player. In retrospect and the benefit of replay it is as others have said very easy to be hyper critical.

If it was me and I have seen it clearly in real time I would probably have binned Ashton and red to Manu. But that is why we have citing to review evidence in hindsight.

the riduculous sensationtal nature of the reporting by the likes of Barnes just takes away from what a wonderful game it was. The incident was a strightforward hot headed fight in the middle of the pitch with no bearing on the result as neither player left the field for injury and no try was prevented.He keeps ranting on about how it marred the game ... NO IT DID NOT - it is your constant drivel about it that mars game, Barnes you pompous pipsqueak!
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Re: Red Cards

Post by adamv6 »

IMHO red cards are an essential part of the game. Without them, what threat is there?

Also IMHO, with relation to the events at the weekend in particular, a yellow card for each player was the correct assessment and no citing should occur.

Everyone (including myself) got excited and hung up on the severity of the punch that was thrown, and not the offence itself.

Remember; "The Law is reason free from passion". If you obey this, the incident was an off the ball tackle, followed by reaction, which led to both players throwing punches. The referee and touch judge ruled accordingly.

Where I think the citing commissioner fails all too often is ignoring offences which are dangerous to the welfare of a player.
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h's dad
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Re: Red Cards

Post by h's dad »

DickyP wrote:...Or the US Football system, where although a player may get 'thrown out of the game' they never play with other than 11 men.

I personally dislike any form of sanction that makes the game unequal - I've never seen the achievement in scoring 'cheap' points, and I'd get rid of cards completely and go with the American Football method.
Not sure I understand this. Do you mean one team's least valuable player can take out the opposition's most valuable player so that both need replacing, one as an injury and the other as a punishment, giving a significant advantage to the offending team?
I am neither clever enough to understand nor stupid enough to play this game
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