Twelvetrees not the finished article

[voice of the crumbie]

Having attended yesterday's match against Perpignan I can see why Cockers might favour Staunton over Twelvetrees.

Before I go into that I would add that I am not a Twelevetrees knocker and generally feel he has a lot to offer Tigers once he fulfils his undoubted potential.

However on the evidence from yesterday there are 2 aspects of his game he clearly needs to work on and where Staunton, due to age and experience, is better.

They are kicking out of hand and restarts.

There were a number of aimless kicks straight to the Perpignan back 3 which allowed them to run back at Tigers and keep us under pressure.

Also I can only remember 1 restart that didn't go long. Again the Perpignan defence had lots of time to catch without any pressure from Tigers and run back at us.

[tb1]

The restarts would look less bad if there was any line speed on our chase.

[physiodan]

To win in the HC then game management is needed. Staunton is not the best all rounder and isn't the most dynamic but he is good at managing games. This is probably why he is a bit of a journey man. Doesn't set the world alight but has too many attributes to ignor when it comes to controlling the game. In time 12T will have these but hopefully in time he will become our starting 12 where he can take the pressure off Flood by kicking long penalties but likewise Flood can take the pressure kicks.

[apps]

we lost are restart king in lewis moody & only scotty was the one chaseing any of them

[mol2]

we lost are restart king in lewis moody & only scotty was the one chaseing any of them

I guess that reflects the lack of pace in the back row when Croft is injured. Similarly our full backs are not the paciest. Geordan's certainly slowed and Alesana would be better suited to centre if he had the handling skills to match his power.

Kicking infield seemed to be very much a tactical option chosen by Tigers - rather than missed touch by Twelvetrees however without chasers it's simply handing the ball back to the opposition - that didn't work under Meyer so why should it now?
Kicking to touch at least give the opportunity to challenge at the line out.

[Darc Tiger]

Last night showed the merits of having Staunton as 2nd choice flyhalf as opposed to Twelvetrees.

Twelvetrees may offer more individually going forward, but I felt that the backline would have run no worse, if not a bit better, with Staunton at 10. His control and experience could have helped where Twelvetrees tended to look a bit hesitant. Also his tactical kicking is generally better.

I would much rather see Twelvetrees back in the centres, where I feel we can maximise his potential. His forte is going forward at attacking, which I feel is lost somewhat when he has to manage a game at 10, and rarely gets to go it alone, where he has shown that he has the pace and power to cause problems and make breaks.

That is not to say that the game time he has had has not been invaluable. He will have benefited enormously from the experience, but I feel if we want to see the best out of him, he needs game time at centre. And as things stand, I think him being 3rd choice flyhalf is about right, with the possibility of him starting ahead of Staunton if Flood is unavailable.

[physiodan]

Last night showed the merits of having Staunton as 2nd choice flyhalf as opposed to Twelvetrees.

Twelvetrees may offer more individually going forward, but I felt that the backline would have run no worse, if not a bit better, with Staunton at 10. His control and experience could have helped where Twelvetrees tended to look a bit hesitant. Also his tactical kicking is generally better.

I would much rather see Twelvetrees back in the centres, where I feel we can maximise his potential. His forte is going forward at attacking, which I feel is lost somewhat when he has to manage a game at 10, and rarely gets to go it alone, where he has shown that he has the pace and power to cause problems and make breaks.

That is not to say that the game time he has had has not been invaluable. He will have benefited enormously from the experience, but I feel if we want to see the best out of him, he needs game time at centre. And as things stand, I think him being 3rd choice flyhalf is about right, with the possibility of him starting ahead of Staunton if Flood is unavailable.

Totally agree. 12T is a 12. Even says it in his name. He can cover 10 but not in the high pressure games.

[Luke]

It is interesting that no-one commented on an article about 12T not being the finished article before the Perpignan game. All the talk beforehand was of Cockerill's short-sightedness at putting Staunton on the bench, rather than 12T. Hindsight is a wonderful thing... but then would Staunton have performed better?

Is 12T the next big thing because of his performances in the AP in recent weeks, or just a kid not ready for the big time yet because of yesterday? If the coaches were as fickle with their views from game to game then the starting line-up would look very strange indeed.

Young players like 12T need time to grow into their role. Rugby is tough at the top and unforgiving but if after the first average performance such a player was shoved down the pecking order then it would stunt their development (see Anthony Allen).

Have patience with a young guy playing out of position and carry the expectation that along the way he will, of course, make mistakes and learn from them.

[Steve56]

I'm so pleased that there are people out there who think as I do about Twelvetrees. There are people out there who think that he is a demi-god. In my opinion he's a very good prospect, but at the moment he's not sufficiently good at anything for him to be an automatic shoe-in for Toby Flood, especially in crucial games such as against Perpignon (with the exception of his half-way plus kicks).

His box kicking is a liability, and he can't find long touch to save his life. Also his restarts are not high enough, especially when we don't have a first-rate openside. When you remember back to Andy Goode's restarts (they nearly went into orbit), giving Moody time to challenge and often retake possession, you realise what a disadvantage we are putting ourselves under from the start.

I also can't understand the thinking behind Flood being injured although being named in the side, then Twelvetrees leapfrogging Staunton into the starting lineup.

[Ian Cant]

Not Twelvetrees fault we lost yesterday. At least in the first half he tackled Henry Tuilagi! I wasn't particularly impressed by our tactics and lack of discipline-back chatting so penalty becomes kickable- but it was a day when we missed Flood, Crane and Croft. At the end when with the last play the forwards did some great work then Geordan threw the ball wildly to the supporters in the Cat stand! So no one person to blame and we as a crowd were pretty quiet too compared to the away fans! Time to move on and beat everyone after Christmas. We are still a great team in the making!! Let's MAKE MORE NOISE in the New Year. Happy Christmas everyone.

[Hull Fan]

I agree with Darc Tigers earlier post about 12T being a 12.
AA has done nothing wrong and is strong defensively but i feel 12T would offer the same defensive qualities (tackle on Henry T on sunday) but give a greater attacking edge.
I would like to see him play alongside Flood to see what they could achieve together. I think 12T is quicker than Allen and has the bulk to force through some half gaps that perhaps Allen couldn't.
This is obviously just my opinion.

[MurphysLaw]

[quote="Luke"]It is interesting that no-one commented on an article about 12T not being the finished article before the [i]Perpignan[/i] game. All the talk beforehand was of Cockerill's short-sightedness at putting Staunton on the bench, rather than 12T.. .....[/quote]

A generalisation - there are many on here who think 12Trees is far from the finished article.
I was happy with the original squad selection, prior to Flood's injury. I can not understand why, in such a high pressure game, our specialist second choice fly-half did not start (nor come off the bench). A strange gamble by Cockers, presumably on the strength of 12T's long range place kicking.
I agree with Steve56, and others - he is a good prospect. But he needs to learn and he needs to be played in his best position.

[Broadstaff]

Such small margins. For the first 60 minutes I thought 36 was playing with confidence and guiding us home and looking as if he might just become the finished article. Don't think he missed many touches - he was deliberately kicking down the centre of the field - couldn't go for touch as ball had often been passed back into the 22. He kicked some excellent balls out of hand - much better than earlier in the season.

Then ... a missed penalty, and another, confidence gone. Ah!! I hope he gets the chance to play again as soon as so he can get that last 20 mins out of his system. By the way, I like Cocker's comment that a goal kicker can win games, but that he doesn't lose them.

[4071]

I'm so pleased that there are people out there who think as I do about Twelvetrees. There are people out there who think that he is a demi-god.

No there aren't.

There are people out there who think that his versatility and kicking range makes him a useful bench option ahead of a specialist FH, escpecially now that he has picked up experience in the 10 position.

Apparently this opinion is enough to make a person part of the 'Billy Brigade' and equivalent to rating him as a demi-God.


Very peculiar.